2009 NCAA football thread!!

[transplant99]

The Pac 10 may appear to be simply an athletic conference, but that's not the way the conference thinks of itself or the way the conference sells itself

It is an athletic conferenc...thats all it is actually. There is no PAC 10 or SEC or Big 12 or Big East or ACC...without athletics. They are conferences for one thing and one thing only....athletics and money from said athletics. They ALL market themsleves as a group of academic wonderworlds, but that is for far more than just being alike, its to attract students and their tuitions. Obviously. Every conference does the same thing. Hell we just saw the ACC expand a few years ago, wasnt no problem then...and no one is going to tell me that Fla St and Miami are some great bastion of academia...and in fact every conference has those schools that aren't the leaders in putting people in Mensa.

I am aware that the liklihood of a PO system in CBB is between nil and zero at this point, but that doesnt mean it cant or shouldnt be done. It is the ONLY sport in the NCAA or pro sports that for some inexplicable reason is way above a playoff system to determine its champions every year. It can try and hide behind the "tradition of bowl games" excuse, but since they have already destroyed that very reason themselves with the BCS, so it remains a strawman. The current system is unfair to the players, the fans and all those who see the game for how good it is, and how much better it can be. Money always wins out though.

I see absolutely no reason that a Boise St and Utah couldnt join the PAC 10, divide into two divisions like the Big 12, ACC, and SEC...none whatsoever. So their conference then adds a couple other schools looking to move up in the world to make that balance out...and so on down the line.

[ricoFlame]

From ESPN:

"Here's a quick look at the top five for the initial BCS standings."

1. Florida

2. Alabama

3. Texas

4. Boise State

5. Cincinnati

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

From ESPN:

"Here's a quick look at the top five for the initial BCS standings."

1. Florida

2. Alabama

3. Texas

4. Boise State

5. Cincinnati

Sigh.

just shows you absolutely ridiculous the whole BCS "system" is.

Cincinnati..has beat who? 4-2 Oregon St, 3-3 fresno St, 4-2 Rutgers, SE Missouri St., Miami of Ohio, and South Florida.

but somehow they are really the 5th best team in the country?? Really?

Fortunately this system usually punishes teams for their schedule as we move forward...and cincy as well as Boise St. have no one left on their schedules that will help them.

Would be nice to have a system that would allow them to prove their collective worth at the end of the year though...thats for sure.

[ricoFlame]

Here's the full BCS standings:

1 Florida
2 Alabama
3 Texas
4 Boise State
5 Cincinnati
6 Iowa
7 USC
8 TCU
9 LSU
10 Miami (FL)
11 Oregon
12 Georgia Tech
13 Penn State
14 Virginia Tech
15 Oklahoma State
16 Brigham Young
17 Houston
18 Utah
19 Ohio State
20 Pittsburgh
21 Wisconsin
22 Arizona
23 West Virginia
24 South Carolina
25 Kansas

[JayP]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sigh.

just shows you absolutely ridiculous the whole BCS "system" is.

Cincinnati..has beat who? 4-2 Oregon St, 3-3 fresno St, 4-2 Rutgers, SE Missouri St., Miami of Ohio, and South Florida.

but somehow they are really the 5th best team in the country?? Really?

Fortunately this system usually punishes teams for their schedule as we move forward...and cincy as well as Boise St. have no one left on their schedules that will help them.

Would be nice to have a system that would allow them to prove their collective worth at the end of the year though...thats for sure.

Cincy has the 71st hardest schedule in the country. Texas isn't much better at 56th. Yet there's no problem with anyone talking about them being the best team in the country.

I find it funny that yesterday you were crying about how if Notre Dame lost to USC by 40 and won out they'd still get an undeserved BCS berth. But it's okay if they get a playoff berth, right?

I'd like to see your idea for a playoff system. It's easy to scream PLAYOFFS! every week, but if you actually look at the logistics of it it's not quite as simple.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Why not?

The PAC-10 is an athletic conference...nothing else. What is it that they dont "fit in" about when it comes to joining an athletic conference.

Is it their TV audience? Seating capacity? What exactly prohibits a Boise St from joining the Pac-10 exactly?


And what are you talking about with ND?? The Big 11 have been after them to join for years, but it is in their best financial interests to stay independant because they dont have to share their massive revenue streams with anyone else.

Its funny that ND basketball can be part of a conference, but their FB team cannot...dont you think?

Well, the most obvious thing is that an athletic conference is more than just about football. If Boise St joins the Pac-10 it does so for all sports. I don't know too much how well they do in other sports, but everything I've read regarding this point says that Boise St. would be woefully over-matched in all sports, but football.

Another huge issue is the TV market. Boise is only a city of 200 000 people. Utah will likely be in the Pac-10 soon enough to take advantage of the Salt Lake City market, but Boise isn't a market that impresses anyone. Schools like Nevada (although it is in Reno, the Las Vegas market would overlap), Fresno St, and even San Diego St. might be considered for the Pac-10 before Boise St.

[transplant99]

I find it funny that yesterday you were crying about how if Notre Dame lost to USC by 40 and won out they'd still get an undeserved BCS berth. But it's okay if they get a playoff berth, right

Right...then they can show whether they belong or not instead of leaving up to a frickin computer system that no one understands and rarely seems to make sense.

Again I implore you to tell us why it is that NCAA FB is the ONLY sport in college or pro that is above needing a playoff to determine its champion. From what you are saying NO sports should have a playoff just in case a team gets hot at the right/wrong time. Thats laughable.

Well, the most obvious thing is that an athletic conference is more than just about football. If Boise St joins the Pac-10 it does so for all sports. I don't know too much how well they do in other sports, but everything I've read regarding this point says that Boise St. would be woefully over-matched in all sports, but football

Well that would be true...if it wasn't

Notre Dame belongs to the Big East in every sport except FB. Why couldn't BS just play a Pac 10 FB shchedule? Hell ND belongs to no where and seem to find 12 games a year no problem.

Another huge issue is the TV market. Boise is only a city of 200 000 people. Utah will likely be in the Pac-10 soon enough to take advantage of the Salt Lake City market, but Boise isn't a market that impresses anyone. Schools like Nevada (although it is in Reno, the Las Vegas market would overlap), Fresno St, and even San Diego St. might be considered for the Pac-10 before Boise St.

So Nevada can overlap into a big city that has a team, but Boise St cant? I dont get it.

Fresno State would make some sense as well...but how much bigger is it than Boise? Especially when surrounding areas are considered.

There simply isnt an argument agaisnt a playoff system that makes any more sense than actually having one. When a 0 loss SEC team is excluded from making the NC game...something is horribly wrong. It starst with a pre-season ranking that no one knows how accurate it is and if you get ranked low to begin with, you cant play for a championship even if you are the best team in the country. Its a joke and an abomination.

[octothorp]

Here's the complete standings with a breakdown of all the different rankings:

http://www.bcsfootball.org/cfb/story...-BCS-Standings

USC, Texas, and Miami (Fla) have notably low computer rankings, while Cincinatti, LSI, Iowa, Oregon and Georgia all get better results from the computers than the live people.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Right...then they can show whether they belong or not instead of leaving up to a frickin computer system that no one understands and rarely seems to make sense.

Again I implore you to tell us why it is that NCAA FB is the ONLY sport in college or pro that is above needing a playoff to determine its champion. From what you are saying NO sports should have a playoff just in case a team gets hot at the right/wrong time. Thats laughable.

So it's a joke if they make a BCS game, but should be allowed to show if they belong in a playoff system? Those are conflicting statements if I've ever seen them. I find it funny that you think adding a playoff system will do any to fix the problem of teams playing weak non-conference schedules. Why the hell would a high prestige program schedule anything other than cupcakes if they can go 5-3 in conference play, finish 9-3 and slip into the playoffs. It would happen because what voter (2/3's of the system) doesn't take a 9-3 LSU in the playoffs over a 9-3 Maryland (both hypotheticals)?

Well that would be true...if it wasn't

Notre Dame belongs to the Big East in every sport except FB. Why couldn't BS just play a Pac 10 FB shchedule? Hell ND belongs to no where and seem to find 12 games a year no problem.

Uh, are you actually comparing to Notre Dame to Boise St?

Notre Dame can do it because they're Notre freakin' Dame. They're the only school with their own TV contract. Boise St. won't get in the Pac-10 because they aren't a big enough TV market to generate revenue for a conference's TV deal.

So Nevada can overlap into a big city that has a team, but Boise St cant? I dont get it.

Fresno State would make some sense as well...but how much bigger is it than Boise? Especially when surrounding areas are considered.

There simply isnt an argument agaisnt a playoff system that makes any more sense than actually having one. When a 0 loss SEC team is excluded from making the NC game...something is horribly wrong. It starst with a pre-season ranking that no one knows how accurate it is and if you get ranked low to begin with, you cant play for a championship even if you are the best team in the country. Its a joke and an abomination.

Nevada overlaps because there isn't a major team in Las Vegas. Where is Boise St going to overlap with? It's the biggest city in the state and only city with more than 100 000 people.

Fresno - 500 000
Boise - 200 000

Significantly bigger. That doesn't even factor the surrounding areas around Fresno that have a much higher population density.

Way to take the easy way out and not give a logical playoff system. It's easy to say there should be one, but analyze the logistics and there's still huge issues. 8 team playoffs still leave mid-majors or the top 1-loss teams out and 16-team playoffs allow 4-5 or more 3-loss teams who have no business winning a National Championship.

You do realize there's an SEC Championship game so one of Florida or Alabama will have a loss by the end of the season. I'd like to hear which teams in the history of the BCS started too low in the pre-season rankings and should have been in the title game.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Right...then they can show whether they belong or not instead of leaving up to a frickin computer system that no one understands and rarely seems to make sense.

Again I implore you to tell us why it is that NCAA FB is the ONLY sport in college or pro that is above needing a playoff to determine its champion. From what you are saying NO sports should have a playoff just in case a team gets hot at the right/wrong time. Thats laughable.

I think the fact that you haven't even attempted to propose a realistic and workable playoff system is a pretty strong answer to that question.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think the fact that you haven't even attempted to propose a realistic and workable playoff system is a pretty strong answer to that question.

Not really. He asked why Jay thinks NCAA D1 football is ABOVE needing a playoff.

Why would his proposed playoff system have any bearing on the answer to a question he asked Jay?

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by JayP

. If Boise St joins the Pac-10 it does so for all sports. I don't know too much how well they do in other sports, but everything I've read regarding this point says that Boise St. would be woefully over-matched in all sports, but football.

They are members of the pac 10 for wrestling...so as for the "it does so for all sports" comment...

[flip]

Ok, so I'm not the biggest CFB fan in the world and I'm sure I'll get laughed out of the thread for suggesting this but here goes.


How about instead of a true playoff formant, the NCAA begins to (somewhat) mandate what the schedules look like?

Sure they have to keep their conference play and still have a few easy games at the beginning of the year to get warmed up (well at least 1 game against a joke of a team to get warmed up).

Also, the NCAA could require teams have a fairly open ended schedule towards the latter part of the season. Obviously this would cause problems for people who want to book travel arrangements to games that are far away (USC vs pretty much anyone in the east for example)

Basically teams would be held accountable for their strength of schedule WAY more than they do now.

You want to make it to the NC game? Then you MUST play at least 2-3 teams in the top 20 and obviously win more than you lose.

Now people might point that this makes lower end schools not have much hope. Quite the opposite IMO. If you are clearly playing above your school's reputation, so to speak, then your schedule gets harder and you play the best of the best. If you can beat them then you are in contention.

Force teams ranked really high to play each other more often. Make it so that a team like Utah (from last year) can't bitch that they weren't given a shot. If they are ranked high and want a BCS bid then you MUST play someone (or multiple teams) in the top 10. If teams in the top 10 refuse to play other difficult teams then by default they cannot be NC caliber teams. This is where the NCAA involvement would come in, because they would have to make sure that teams wouldn't gang up and all agree not to play an opponent like Utah just to keep them out of contention. Then teams could actually get rewarded for playing (and even losing) to high ranked schools.

Say team A plays only ok teams and has a strength of schedule that is mediocre, they only play one top 10 team and win convincingly, but they go 12-0. Team B plays opponents ranked 2, 5, 10 but loses 2 of the three games and go 10-2. In all three games they clearly establish that they aren't out of place and belong at the top of the heap (ie lose by less than 4 points). I'd give team B the BCS shot and let Team A sit at home.

As it is too much emphasis is placed on going undefeated, not who is the best team.

Obviously there are numerous intricacies to be worked out but I think it is the only way. Use the first part of the season to set up rankings, then use the last 6-8 weeks to really determine who is the best of the best by having them play each other.

Sure it would cause some wrinkles in current conference play but I'm sure teams could work around it.

Then you wouldn't have teams like Boise this year who have no more difficult teams on their schedule. If you don't make a hard schedule, then you are automatically ineligible for BSC contention.


I know it'll never happen, but that is what I'd do. Then the last half of the regular season act as a playoff system in essence and you can still have a one off NC without (IMO) as much of a sh**storm as there is now.

Right now CFB is the biggest joke in ALL of pro sports world wide in determining a champion. that includes sports in sketchy ass countries where the outcome is likely fixed or baseball where half the players used to dope.

It would be more fitting to just flip a coin based on the current system. At least that would be fair.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Not really. He asked why Jay thinks NCAA D1 football is ABOVE needing a playoff.

Why would his proposed playoff system have any bearing on the answer to a question he asked Jay?

Because the fact that he can't come up with a viable option is the reason why NCAA football is above a playoff system. Name me another sport that has the issues to deal with that NCAA football does? It's a completely unique situation, the whole 'everyone else has a playoff' argument is ridiculous because it pretends that all things are equal.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

They are members of the pac 10 for wrestling...so as for the "it does so for all sports" comment...

No they aren't, they are 'associate members' for wrestling. It's a completely different situation with a sport like football where hundreds of millions of dollars of TV revenue are at issue.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Because the fact that he can't come up with a viable option is the reason why NCAA football is above a playoff system. Name me another sport that has the issues to deal with that NCAA football does? It's a completely unique situation, the whole 'everyone else has a playoff' argument is ridiculous because it pretends that all things are equal.

So if someone comes up with a viable playoff system for D-1 college football you're on board?

That's what you're telling me?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think the fact that you haven't even attempted to propose a realistic and workable playoff system is a pretty strong answer to that question.

There are a dozen different suggestions out there....do i really need to type them all out for you?

I have no idea what the best one is, or which one will work. I do know for a fact though that the current system DOESNT WORK, HAS NEVER WORKED , AND WILL NEVER WORK. It cant. It has a bloody machine deciding 33% of who plays....and another 2 polls of humans who have to base their order largely based on where teams were ranked before they ever play a freaking game.

Name me another sport that has the issues to deal with that NCAA football does? It's a completely unique situation, the whole 'everyone else has a playoff' argument is ridiculous because it pretends that all things are equal

Yeah...its so unique that the NCAA itself...already has a playoff system for football. So no, that argument isnt ridiculous...its a fact.

Give me a break.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

No they aren't, they are 'associate members' for wrestling. It's a completely different situation with a sport like football where hundreds of millions of dollars of TV revenue are at issue.

Funny...there seems to be a whole lot of money from Basketball too...yet they figure it out somehow.

[transplant99]

I'd like to hear which teams in the history of the BCS started too low in the pre-season rankings and should have been in the title game.

the rest of your post is mere blather to me and i wont change your mind just as you will never change mine, but let me answer this one question for you.

2004 Auburn. undefeated SEC champion....watched as USC and Oklahoma played for the NC.

Good enough answer for you?

[transplant99]

Why the hell would a high prestige program schedule anything other than cupcakes if they can go 5-3 in conference play, finish 9-3 and slip into the playoffs. It would happen because what voter (2/3's of the system) doesn't take a 9-3 LSU in the playoffs over a 9-3 Maryland (both hypotheticals)?

this got me thinking.

Since 2003, the BCS final standings, if you take the top 16 as a cut off....thats 96 teams.

there have been 15 3 loss teams, and one 4 loss team (tennessee).

So in that whole time, there wasnt even 20% of the theoretical playoff teams that would have 3 losses or more.

I think anyone could live with that.

And asa for the cupcakes argument....they do that NOW. Look at Floridas OOC schedule this year, or Ohio St. Or Texas for that matter. Its a joke.

As a last note...Mack Brown was on ESPN tonight when the computer rankings were released and was adamant that the current system doesnt work and something has to be done about it.