Vatican tries to wiggle out of sex abuse scams by....

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Mike Oxlong

No they don't round them up in Churches/synagogues/temples/chapels etc....
They have to use schools/playgrounds/shopping malls/ the internet etc... to round them up.

Obviously the places of worship weren't built for pedophiles to round up little boys and it's silly to even suggest that. Unfortunately there are some bad apples that are using these facilities for their own twisted gain. Just like the aethiest and agnostic sickos use playgrounds and schools for their own sick gain. Was that the intended use for those facilities?

Laugh. Come on now.

"Children, beware. That nice man in the raincoat handing out caramels doesn't believe in God. He is a prevert. Next time you see him, tell your parents, a teacher or a clergyman".

No doubt there are non-god-believing "sickos", but seriously, you don't see a pattern with this Priest thing? Despite their best efforts to hide it, these stories come out all the time. The stories about the atheist lurking in the shadows of a playground -- we don't hear about those ones too often (or ever). And even if we did, that guy is acting alone, and he doesn't have a multinational organization taking cues from the Master of the Universe to back him up if he gets caught. Whoever signs his check isn't going to move him to another office if they know he's a child molester.

[peter12]

This whole anti-religious things has gotten awfully boring. One of my very good friends is also a very devout Catholic and he's one of the best people that I've ever known.

People who generalize an entire faith based on an occasional media story don't seem to have accomplished much personal contemplation.

[Mike Oxlong]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh. Come on now.

"Children, beware. That nice man in the raincoat handing out caramels doesn't believe in God. He is a prevert. Next time you see him, tell your parents, a teacher or a clergyman".

No doubt there are non-god-believing "sickos", but seriously, you don't see a pattern with this Priest thing? Despite their best efforts to hide it, these stories come out all the time. The stories about the atheist lurking in the shadows of a playground -- we don't hear about those ones too often (or ever). And even if we did, that guy is acting alone, and he doesn't have a multinational organization taking cues from the Master of the Universe to back him up if he gets caught. Whoever signs his check isn't going to move him to another office if they know he's a child molester.

The point I am trying to make is that churches/temples/synagogues weren't built with the intention of rounding up little boys to molest like was suggested. Unfortunately it happens there, but to suggest that is where they round them up is ridiculous.

Those who want to prey on children will find them where children congregate. Whether that is a place of worship, a playground, or the internet.

The reason we don't hear about the non god believing sicko touching boys is because the only time the pedophile's religion gets mentioned is when it happens to be a priest. When a teacher gets busted for diddling one of his kids they don't ever focus on what religion the teacher is.

Pedophiles strike thousands of times every single day sometimes they are religious people sometimes they aren't. People just seem to like to jump on the Catholic religion (or religion in general) as a whole based on the actions of a very few. A VERY sick few who should be punished to the maximum extent of the law.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

This whole anti-religious things has gotten awfully boring. One of my very good friends is also a very devout Catholic and he's one of the best people that I've ever known.

People who generalize an entire faith based on an occasional media story don't seem to have accomplished much personal contemplation.

Really? That's what you see as the point of this thread? Not the fact that the Catholic Church, as an organization, continues to cover-up and marginalize horrific crimes against children?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really? That's what you see as the point of this thread? Not the fact that the Catholic Church, as an organization, continues to cover-up and marginalize horrific crimes against children?

What does the Catholic Church, as an organization, even mean? I thought Christians believed that the actual people were the Church. If you want to go after clergy than be specific.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

What does the Catholic Church, as an organization, even mean? I thought Christians believed that the actual people were the Church. If you want to go after clergy than be specific.

I don't know. I have a lot issues with the Catholic congregation, too. They seem to tacitly support what the clergy is doing by not condemning the cover-up actions. Do the Catholics who say they don't support the actions of the clergy ever question the clergy or demonstrate that they don't support their actions? Have they stopped putting their money in the collection plate?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mike Oxlong

The point I am trying to make is that churches/temples/synagogues weren't built with the intention of rounding up little boys to molest like was suggested. Unfortunately it happens there, but to suggest that is where they round them up is ridiculous.

Those who want to prey on children will find them where children congregate. Whether that is a place of worship, a playground, or the internet.

The reason we don't hear about the non god believing sicko touching boys is because the only time the pedophile's religion gets mentioned is when it happens to be a priest. When a teacher gets busted for diddling one of his kids they don't ever focus on what religion the teacher is.

Pedophiles strike thousands of times every single day sometimes they are religious people sometimes they aren't. People just seem to like to jump on the Catholic religion (or religion in general) as a whole based on the actions of a very few. A VERY sick few who should be punished to the maximum extent of the law.

Mike,
I think your losing the point here. Noone is suggesting that non religious people who do the same thing arent sick or disturbed. Quite the opposite I would think. The issue is that there are clerics of ALL religious stripes, who are hired and put in a position of trust and caring for our children, caught preying...(vs praying, sic)...on the children. It doesnt matter whether its 1% or 5% of the clerics that do this, the fact is the children are sent to these parishes with the full belief that what they are doing is making them closer to God with their parents consent! In the end these children get a mind fark of the highest order. This has been going on for centuries with noone calling them out for their sick and horrible abuse on children!
Finally when we see it for what it is, and bring it to the attention of everyone, you try to turn it on us and make it appear that a pedophile is a pedophile no matter where or what he is?
Are you suggesting that we simply "turn a blind eye" to this matter and never bring it up at all?
Is that what the parishioners are doing in the various churches they attend?

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Mike,
I think your losing the point here. Noone is suggesting that non religious people who do the same thing arent sick or disturbed. Quite the opposite I would think. The issue is that there are clerics of ALL religious stripes, who are hired and put in a position of trust and caring for our children, caught preying...(vs praying, sic)...on the children. It doesnt matter whether its 1% or 5% of the clerics that do this, the fact is the children are sent to these parishes with the full belief that what they are doing is making them closer to God with their parents consent! In the end these children get a mind fark of the highest order. This has been going on for centuries with noone calling them out for their sick and horrible abuse on children!
Finally when we see it for what it is, and bring it to the attention of everyone, you try to turn it on us and make it appear that a pedophile is a pedophile no matter where or what he is?
Are you suggesting that we simply "turn a blind eye" to this matter and never bring it up at all?
Is that what the parishioners are doing in the various churches they attend?

I'd be more worried about the public school system in which we put our trust in teachers to guide, care, and tutor our children. It doesn't downplay the concerns in the Catholic church but to only focus your concern and statistics on that and not secular society makes for a very poor approach to the board. Your attacking one segment of something that surrounds every part of society whether it's encompassing a religious sect or your neighbor's dayhome. No difference. So to me your looking through a pretty damn small window pane, there is a lot more out there you are failing to oblige, and its a hell of a lot bigger then the Catholic church or religion period.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by peter12

This whole anti-religious things has gotten awfully boring. One of my very good friends is also a very devout Catholic and he's one of the best people that I've ever known.

People who generalize an entire faith based on an occasional media story don't seem to have accomplished much personal contemplation.

So are you saying that perhaps if I do a little more "personal contemplation", I won't criticize an organization that has allowed its representatives to rape children and go unpunished?

I'm not generalizing an entire faith. This is about pedophile priests and the excuses that are made for them, not the "congregation".

Anyway, what do you think of this Tomasi fellow's idea that men who rape 14-year-old boys are not pedophiles, but just homosexuals with a penchant for children?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I'd be more worried about the public school system in which we put our trust in teachers to guide, care, and tutor our children. It doesn't downplay the concerns in the Catholic church but to only focus your concern and statistics on that and not secular society makes for a very poor approach to the board. Your attacking one segment of something that surrounds every part of society whether it's encompassing a religious sect or your neighbor's dayhome. No difference. So to me your looking through a pretty damn small window pane, there is a lot more out there you are failing to oblige, and its a hell of a lot bigger then the Catholic church or religion period.

No Im not, and try not to put words in my mouth! You have no idea what I do and how much I campaign for children in ALL walks of life.
Yes ANYONE who preys on children for any reason are sick individuals...thats not the point and you know it.
Anyone who simply tries to brush this under the carpet because they are part of that secret society bares just as much blame IMHO.
As has been mentioned many times before...IF I was part of a group or organization that had ANY % of my leaders as pedophiles, I would be DEMANDING answers/retribution the FIRST time it happened. You can buff a turd as much as you want...in the end you still have a turd.
The FACT that you are more worried about teachers than religious leaders speaks loud and clear to me.

[Calgaryborn]

If you are of the mind set to prey on children you go where children are and you have the possibility of control over them. A priest, a pastor, a teacher, a mental health care worker, a coach all give you unsupervised access to children. One should expect the most prolific offenders to be found in those professions. Of those categories priest/pastors and mental health workers have the most private contact. Unfortunately all of these professions also carry some of the most self sacrificing individuals within society. It would be really unjust to taint the good that is done by the majority by lumping them with the few who are truly evil.

That being said a dialogue has to take place. Churches, schools, health care facilities, sports leagues and any other institution that could be used by predators need to develop policies that protect children from them. Exposing with the view to prosecuting said predators must be viewed as more important than protecting the institutes reputation they are found in. Finally parents need to be educated and given the tools to recognize potential vulnerable situations as well as what to do if they suspect something has occurred.

What doesn't help is people using the natural vulnerability of certain institutions as a reason to attack them. All that does is turn an important conversation into a divisive argument.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So are you saying that perhaps if I do a little more "personal contemplation", I won't criticize an organization that has allowed its representatives to rape children and go unpunished?

I'm not generalizing an entire faith. This is about pedophile priests and the excuses that are made for them, not the "congregation".

Anyway, what do you think of this Tomasi fellow's idea that men who rape 14-year-old boys are not pedophiles, but just homosexuals with a penchant for children?

Probably that Tomasi and company deserve a good solid kick to the face.

[flip]

Originally Posted by peter12

This whole anti-religious things has gotten awfully boring. One of my very good friends is also a very devout Catholic and he's one of the best people that I've ever known.

People who generalize an entire faith based on an occasional media story don't seem to have accomplished much personal contemplation.

When did anyone in this thread say your friend is a bad person for being religious?

Seriously, the only thing more annoying than the Catholic church condoning the molestation of children is people who come into this thread and make stupid posts defending religion for no apparent reason. It started with Killer Carlson and just spiraled.

If you don't like hearing bad things about the religion that you prescribe to, or that your friends prescribe to, stick your head back in the sand.

We are talking about an organization that has not only condoned but also willingly covered up and marginalized the molestation of children. The fact that you are accusing us "atheists" of attempting to link practicing Catholics to the child molestation by the Catholic Church as an organization is pathetic and tiring.

I really tried to stay out of this thread because the anti-atheists showed up early and made an attempt to act extra dense but I just can't. How you or anyone else in this thread can try and deflect just blame on the organization of the Catholic church by sensationalizing us so called "anti-religious" types is sickening and embarrassing.

Why don't you leave your friend out of this and try and concentrate on the fact that in the last who know how many years (2000? 500? 100?) the Catholic Church has had explicit involvement in the molestation of innocent children across the world and NA.

That isn't to mention the numerous other atrocities they have explicitly been a part of and the ones, like the holocaust, that they implicitly supported.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I'd be more worried about the public school system in which we put our trust in teachers to guide, care, and tutor our children. It doesn't downplay the concerns in the Catholic church but to only focus your concern and statistics on that and not secular society makes for a very poor approach to the board. Your attacking one segment of something that surrounds every part of society whether it's encompassing a religious sect or your neighbor's dayhome. No difference. So to me your looking through a pretty damn small window pane, there is a lot more out there you are failing to oblige, and its a hell of a lot bigger then the Catholic church or religion period.

I think one difference is that while most institutions (public, private, religious, whatever) try to weed out this kind of thing, reduce the harm, and give up the perpetrators to justice, the Catholic Church has employed strategies that really give the wrong impression.. settling out of court, moving priests around and even threatening victims and their families with excommunication if they speak out. Rather than being transparent and eager to weed out the offenders, they are (or were anyway) more worried about the public perception of the Catholic Church than the were about the actual harm being done.

Any organization where kids congregate is going to attract these kinds of people, religious or not.

But to try to stop shining a light on one problem because there are others is kind of silly; it's not like you can do only one or the other.

If I were a Catholic I would have been outraged when I found out about the actions and attitudes the Church had in this case.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

I think one difference is that while most institutions (public, private, religious, whatever) try to weed out this kind of thing, reduce the harm, and give up the perpetrators to justice, the Catholic Church has employed strategies that really give the wrong impression.. settling out of court, moving priests around and even threatening victims and their families with excommunication if they speak out. Rather than being transparent and eager to weed out the offenders, they are (or were anyway) more worried about the public perception of the Catholic Church than the were about the actual harm being done.

Any organization where kids congregate is going to attract these kinds of people, religious or not.

But to try to stop shining a light on one problem because there are others is kind of silly; it's not like you can do only one or the other.

If I were a Catholic I would have been outraged when I found out about the actions and attitudes the Church had in this case.

You are wrong to pretend that the Catholic church has been alone in trying to cover up sexual abuse. I've known 2(maybe3) people who experienced sexual abuse by a priest. However I'm sure I could count over 20 people I've known who was abused by a family member. I'd say 80 to 90% of these victims never have brought charges against their abuser. Most did tell another family member at some point and were told to be quiet or even called an outright liar. Society is changing very slowly. So seemingly is the Catholic church.

[FireFly]

I'm going to wade in here... although I feel like I may indeed get piled on for my POV as a Christian. I am also a victim of child abuse.

Cheese; one of your points here was that parents bring their children into this type of situation. Statistics show that a very large proportion of child abuse is perpetrated by persons close to the family, in a position of trust within the family. I was abused by my uncle. My sister-in-law was abused by her father's friend. Parents don't expect to bring their children into these situations. If my parents never took me to church, I still would've been abused. It's not like parents think to themselves, "hey, I know a place that'll bring a good chance of abuse to my kids," and take them to church. It doesn't happen like that. Anyone in close contact with your family could be perpetrating this type of thing. You just never know.

Part of the reason it is so high profile and publicized is because it is a major organization. Every day abuses do not get publicized. Your buddy diddling your other buddy's daughter is more likely to result in a broken face than publicity. I'm not saying the Church isn't at fault here... I have no great love for the Catholic Church and think their ways are greatly outdated and have some impact on creating these monsters. So yes, it should be publicized that these things are happening; perhaps that will encourage the Church to change. However, you need to ask yourself if it's public because it happens more in the Church, or if it's public because it's the Church.

Frankly, as a child, if my abuse had been public, it would have been devastating. I can understand part of the reason the Church wants to keep this under wraps. For the kids. I'm not saying that's the sole reason, or even a large reason, I'm saying as an abused child, I would have (and did) appreciate having the sitation dealt with privately.

Sure, some of it is a cover up. However, when a person comes to the Church higher ups and says so and so abused my child, do you think they want everyone to know? It's possible that it's 'covered up' because ALL partys want that. As long as it's dealt with, keep it quiet to avoid additional pain on the child, the child's family and the church.

Again, so long as it's dealt with.

For me, having my uncle's face busted was enough. Maybe that's not enough for others.

I guess my point is that it's likely not all of the 'cover ups' are for the benefit of the Church. In addition, cover ups happen outside of the church ALL THE TIME. Look around you when you go for a walk... It's likely 1 in 20 of the men you see have some perversion... if not more. Heck, some of the people reading this likely need help. They've thought sexually about some little girl they know personally and perhaps have even planned how to get them alone. Maybe even they have molested children.

Most 'private' cases are covered up, so it's easy to get away with.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm going to wade in here... although I feel like I may indeed get piled on for my POV as a Christian. I am also a victim of child abuse.

Cheese; one of your points here was that parents bring their children into this type of situation. Statistics show that a very large proportion of child abuse is perpetrated by persons close to the family, in a position of trust within the family. I was abused by my uncle. My sister-in-law was abused by her father's friend. Parents don't expect to bring their children into these situations. If my parents never took me to church, I still would've been abused. It's not like parents think to themselves, "hey, I know a place that'll bring a good chance of abuse to my kids," and take them to church. It doesn't happen like that. Anyone in close contact with your family could be perpetrating this type of thing. You just never know.

Part of the reason it is so high profile and publicized is because it is a major organization. Every day abuses do not get publicized. Your buddy diddling your other buddy's daughter is more likely to result in a broken face than publicity. I'm not saying the Church isn't at fault here... I have no great love for the Catholic Church and think their ways are greatly outdated and have some impact on creating these monsters. So yes, it should be publicized that these things are happening; perhaps that will encourage the Church to change. However, you need to ask yourself if it's public because it happens more in the Church, or if it's public because it's the Church.

Frankly, as a child, if my abuse had been public, it would have been devastating. I can understand part of the reason the Church wants to keep this under wraps. For the kids. I'm not saying that's the sole reason, or even a large reason, I'm saying as an abused child, I would have (and did) appreciate having the sitation dealt with privately.

Sure, some of it is a cover up. However, when a person comes to the Church higher ups and says so and so abused my child, do you think they want everyone to know? It's possible that it's 'covered up' because ALL partys want that. As long as it's dealt with, keep it quiet to avoid additional pain on the child, the child's family and the church.

Again, so long as it's dealt with.

For me, having my uncle's face busted was enough. Maybe that's not enough for others.

I guess my point is that it's likely not all of the 'cover ups' are for the benefit of the Church. In addition, cover ups happen outside of the church ALL THE TIME. Look around you when you go for a walk... It's likely 1 in 20 of the men you see have some perversion... if not more. Heck, some of the people reading this likely need help. They've thought sexually about some little girl they know personally and perhaps have even planned how to get them alone. Maybe even they have molested children.

Most 'private' cases are covered up, so it's easy to get away with.

Firefly..please accept my sincerest and deepest condolences for what your Uncle did. He should be in prison...or at the very least a marked man as a pervert.
Of course if we started looking into the reasons why many "family" members did what they did to their daughters/sons, Im sure we might find some type of religious belief behind their motive. Of course there are those who are just bent...MALE OR FEMALE.
None of this has any bearing on the discussion at hand. We are specifically discussing the role of religious leaders in this horrific and disgusting phenomenon. We can start different posts for School leaders, coaches or parents.
I personally think those that simply brush this under the carpet are wrong and in the end they likely will need more help down the road. Im sure when you have children you would feel the same way if your particular Pastor raped your child.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Of course if we started looking into the reasons why many "family" members did what they did to their daughters/sons, Im sure we might find some type of religious belief behind their motive. Of course there are those who are just bent...MALE OR FEMALE.

Lol. Perverts must have some sort of religious reason. All freaks must be religious. Or maybe it was that he was abused as a child by someone who LACKED God in their life?

Knowing him, I know the answer.

And actually, I'm glad he didn't go to jail. He would be worse off that way. My forgiveness of him did more good than jail ever would and he is a half decent man now.

Different perspectives I guess.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You are wrong to pretend that the Catholic church has been alone in trying to cover up sexual abuse. I've known 2(maybe3) people who experienced sexual abuse by a priest. However I'm sure I could count over 20 people I've known who was abused by a family member. I'd say 80 to 90% of these victims never have brought charges against their abuser. Most did tell another family member at some point and were told to be quiet or even called an outright liar. Society is changing very slowly. So seemingly is the Catholic church.

wow thats a lot of abused people CB!
Do you know the facts behind the personal cases as well? Do you think there were motives behind them that might have been born of a bible or other holy tome?
All of these cases are abhorent, but we must yell out from the rooftops anytime anyone of authority abuses our children...whether that be physically or mentally.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

wow thats a lot of abused people CB!
Do you know the facts behind the personal cases as well? Do you think there were motives behind them that might have been born of a bible or other holy tome?
All of these cases are abhorent, but we must yell out from the rooftops anytime anyone of authority abuses our children...whether that be physically or mentally.

The only common element I can think of is drugs/alcohol. Not in every case but, in most of them drug or alcohol played a part. I suppose I know more facts about some of the accounts than others. I can't think of any who used a religious excuse for the conduct.

Think about it: You'll probably be surprised at how many people you know who were sexually abused as a child. It's shamefully common in our culture.