The Blue Jays: 2009 Season Thread - Page 96 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

calculoso · 10-01-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Yeah, Sox clinched the previous night when Texas lost. Hence why they played a September type lineup. You know they didn't earn it and only made it because others failed. Certainly you've heard that one before on the fire on ice forum....

Definitely heard it before. Still don't believe it.

Ziggy Lidstrom · 10-01-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Speculation. Still, it was signed under JP's watch.

It was also not fair market value either as the last CF to sign a huge contract was Carlos Beltran (For less money than VW!). I'm sorry, Vernon Wells was never close to the level of Carlos Beltran and I said that at the time the contract was signed.

1) He didn't have near the track record of consistency like Beltran,
2) He was still under contract for 1 more season,
3) He had been showing signs of slowing down the in fielding department,
4) He didn't have one of the greatest post season showings of all time to back it up.

Those factors DO NOT EQUATE TO one of the largest contracts handed out in MLB HISTORY.

Any GM worth their salt should have stood up against this BS. JP knew this would completely hamstring his payroll (Deja Vu Delgado) and he should have fought it (IF this was even the case).

Anyways, I know habby can draw from numerous examples of big contracts (Frank Thomas, BJ Ryan) which should not have been signed either if for some reason VW's is "invalid".

Whoever sets the time out limit for inactive accounts needs to seriously consider lenghthening it. I just had a great post ruined by it again. This is so frustrating.

Car: VW is comparable to Beltran. He has two more gold gloves, two less AS appearances, one less ROY award and similar silver slugger awards. Personal prejudices aside, the two are closer than you are making them out to be. VW has been way healthier and deserves credit

. I don't know for certain if Jp was pressured by Management to sign VW, but it makes sense. And lots of extensions are penned with one year remaining on the previous deal: ie Halladay?

The other numerous contracts you allude to are misleading. The notable ones were: Big Hurt, AJ, BJ, VW and Riso. Vw and Rios notwithstanding, the only one that really shouldn't have been signed was FT. BJ was a lights out closer for his first year here and a lights out closer who made the ASG the year before. You can't forsee or plan for injuries. The fact of the matter is the big budget teams can afford to absord the bad contracts and move on without much caterwauling from the faithful. Whereas with our team, every dollar has to count. Thus, the margin for error is much smaller and this argument proves that the smaller teams' fan base is hung up more so than the bigger teams' fans.

Also, as always I respect your efforts in enriching dialouge. But, how does a 3 time GG winner inspire those adjudicating his worth, to suggest his Defense was already deteorating?

calculoso · 10-01-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Whoever sets the time out limit for inactive accounts needs to seriously consider lenghthening it. I just had a great post ruined by it again. This is so frustrating.

If you know that you're writing a long post, perhaps start writing it in Notepad or Word and copy it into the forum?

JohnnyFlame · 10-02-2009, 12:13 PM

"If they're unhappy, they have to look at themselves, because I certainly treated everybody in a way that I'd like to be treated as a player and how I'd like my manager to treat me. If they're grumbling, they're grumbling because they didn't do their jobs. They had opportunities."

A quote from this article http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=293395

Not only do the Jays players suck but they are whining about the manager as well. Want to bet Wells is the ringleader?

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 12:28 PM

Cito has been terrible.

The only real reason for keeping him is that players like him, so if they don't....

As for Wells being the ringleader, I don't think he cares enough to complain. If anything, its other players complaining that they are having their roles reduced while Wells trots out to CF to play lousy defense and has a prime batting slot despite being horrible with RISP (or in any other situation).

I'm thinking guys like Snider and Ruiz are choked about how they're being treated in a throw-away season. Even if they aren't the ones complaining, other members of the team may be voicing displeasure on their behalf.

Also, Accardo has been treated like garbage this season and the only off-field thing that I can think of that would precipitate it is Cito suggested that Accardo could be moved to SP and Accardo (a closer) scoffed at it. I hadn't thought Cito would be petty about that - but this news suggests otherwise.

JohnnyFlame · 10-02-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Cito has been terrible.

The only real reason for keeping him is that players like him, so if they don't....

As for Wells being the ringleader, I don't think he cares enough to complain. If anything, its other players complaining that they are having their roles reduced while Wells trots out to CF to play lousy defense and has a prime batting slot despite being horrible with RISP (or in any other situation).

I'm thinking guys like Snider and Ruiz are choked about how they're being treated in a throw-away season. Even if they aren't the ones complaining, other members of the team may be voicing displeasure on their behalf.

Also, Accardo has been treated like garbage this season and the only off-field thing that I can think of that would precipitate it is Cito suggested that Accardo could be moved to SP and Accardo (a closer) scoffed at it. I hadn't thought Cito would be petty about that - but this news suggests otherwise.

LOL at the Wells does not even care enough to complain. This team needs a gut job. They should do a total rebuild. Manager good with young players. Trade the Doc et. al. The culture around this club is pathetic. Do we have a spare Sutter we can send them?

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Do we have a spare Sutter we can send them?

A Sutter baseball team wouldn't lead the league in "Hit By Pitch."

I don't care if it makes us look like clowns or neanderthals, a Canadian team shouldn't meekly take bean-ball after bean-ball from NY and BOS like Rogers Baseball Operations does.

(BTW, DJF started referring to the team as Rogers Baseball Operations and I'm following suit).

flambers · 10-02-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Cito has been terrible.

The only real reason for keeping him is that players like him, so if they don't....

As for Wells being the ringleader, I don't think he cares enough to complain. If anything, its other players complaining that they are having their roles reduced while Wells trots out to CF to play lousy defense and has a prime batting slot despite being horrible with RISP (or in any other situation).

I'm thinking guys like Snider and Ruiz are choked about how they're being treated in a throw-away season. Even if they aren't the ones complaining, other members of the team may be voicing displeasure on their behalf.

Also, Accardo has been treated like garbage this season and the only off-field thing that I can think of that would precipitate it is Cito suggested that Accardo could be moved to SP and Accardo (a closer) scoffed at it. I hadn't thought Cito would be petty about that - but this news suggests otherwise.

Would totally disagree... Its to easy to blame the Manager. Jays could have had anyone in that role and the outcome would be very similiar.

Its about time a Managers tells the players what they need to hear....

"If they're unhappy, they have to look at themselves, because I certainly treated everybody in a way that I'd like to be treated as a player and how I'd like my manager to treat me. If they're grumbling, they're grumbling because they didn't do their jobs. They had opportunities."

As for Snider, the guy needs to produce... Which he has not.

As for Ruiz he is in his 30's and is a career minor league'r .... time will if this guy is for real. If I had to pick who DH's and who sits... Adam Lind gets the nod for DH'ing every day.

As for Wells he been absolutely terrible...

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flambers

Would totally disagree... Its to easy to blame the Manager. Jays could have had anyone in that role and the outcome would be very similiar.

All that "lose one to win two later" talk at the start of the year when he was being asked about his lousy and nonsensical substitution patterns grinds my gears. Gibby would have been a better in-game manager. Maybe Cito is a better "coach" but he is a terrible manager. That is evident from me watching many games this year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flambers

"If they're unhappy, they have to look at themselves, because I certainly treated everybody in a way that I'd like to be treated as a player and how I'd like my manager to treat me. If they're grumbling, they're grumbling because they didn't do their jobs. They had opportunities."

If Cito said that to Accardo he'd get punched in the nose.
Rightfully so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flambers

As for Snider, the guy needs to produce... Which he has not.

He's 20 years old rookie in a throw-away season.

He needs to play. Not playing Snider (even moving him to different positions) is bad management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flambers

As for Ruiz he is in his 30's and is a career minor league'r .... time will if this guy is for real. If I had to pick who DH's and who sits... Adam Lind gets the nod for DH'ing every day.

Time won't tell because he just sat on his rump for the last three weeks instead of auditioning for the team next year.

Now we either bring him back and audition him next year when the games matter or we just drop him and - according to you - tell him "your pace of a homerun every ten at-bats isn't doing your job. The ten years you spend in the minors doesn't earn you playing time over Kevin "676 OPS" Millar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flambers

As for Wells he been absolutely terrible..

And has received the same treatment Keenan gave Bert.

Keenan was canned for it, Cito should be too.

flambers · 10-02-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

He's 20 years old rookie in a throw-away season.

He needs to play. Not playing Snider (even moving him to different positions) is bad management.

Time won't tell because he just sat on his rump for the last three weeks instead of auditioning for the team next year.

Now we either bring him back and audition him next year when the games matter or we just drop him and - according to you - tell him "your pace of a homerun every ten at-bats isn't doing your job. The ten years you spend in the minors doesn't earn you playing time over Kevin "676 OPS" Millar.

.

Wow.... I guess to respond

Under Cito, three roster players have had career years (Hill, Lind and Scutaro). Rolen was playing really well before he was moved. Sounds like a really good thing to me.

Cito has shown he can manage, problems this year has NOTHING to do with Cito... it has everything to do with the lack of talent in the Roster...

i.e. every starting pitcher but one is on the IR. Wells and Rios struggled... Rolen was dealt. Closer was released.

Jays knew this year was a write off before it started.....

As for Snider, only reason he is with the Jays is the AAA team is done for the season. In my opinion he is not ready and will start next season on AAA.

As for Ruiz, the guy can only DH..... Lind can not play Field every day. So do you sit Lind or sit Ruiz.

The Jays have a good enough view on Ruiz, why do they need to play him every day... who cares if he hits another HR.

Jays will know already what the plans are for Ruiz ......

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 02:09 PM

I'm not saying that the Jays would be the best team in the league except for Cito, but Cito has been a poor manager this year. I have no problem stating that unconditionally.

We'll just agree to disagree.

flambers · 10-02-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

I'm not saying that the Jays would be the best team in the league except for Cito, but Cito has been a poor manager this year. I have no problem stating that unconditionally.

We'll just agree to disagree.

Problem I have is Fans tend to say that with every Jays Manager..... if they fire Cito,,, I bet the Fans will say the same thing next year but with the new Manager.

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flambers

Problem I have is Fans tend to say that with every Jays Manager..... if they fire Cito,,, I bet the Fans will say the same thing next year but with the new Manager.

While generally true, I was an ardent defender of Gibby and posted on CP that firing him was a mistake. (although I had changed my mind about that early this year)

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 04:00 PM

I have to remain anonymous, but I gave you a bit of this when I told you that Rolen was leaving because of Cito. They had a agreement not to make their disagreement public.

It got way worse for Cito as other players started asking the same questions (specifically batting order, where players were starting, late inning replacements) to the point where Cito blew up. He hates second guessing, especially by players. But you guys would be shocked if I told you the player who is actually leading the mutiny. He is actually very good. I am not going to tell you because you wouldn't believe me anyways. This story is a bombshell and I hope some reporter gets it (I am trying to lead someone to it).
-DJF commentator

Gozer · 10-02-2009, 04:04 PM

Millar mabye?

calculoso · 10-02-2009, 04:29 PM

Doc?

ShaolinFlame · 10-02-2009, 04:39 PM

In colder news, haha stupid Redsox?

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ba...438/story.html

bluejays · 10-02-2009, 05:45 PM

Despite all this supposed mutany, Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star (a beat writer with the Jays), thinks it's Riccardi who's planting the seed for the story, and not necessarily the players (again, Riccardi looking to save his job). Interesting read in the first couple paragraphs, as he gives sound reasoning about Riccardi always calling back ESPN people, but not calling back this time at the cusp of something huge to be written like this. He also mentions other inconsistencies in the story, which make me tend to believe it's a BS story blown out of proportion. The crappy part of the article is how Griffin rambles on, which I don't get because he seems to be pointing the finger in all directions.

Sometimes small reasoning prevails and to be really honest, I don't see many trouble makers on the team. I can't see Overbay, Hill, Doc, Scutaro, Lind as trouble makers at all, and pitchers tend to keep to themselves. Perhaps it's Wells, Barajas and Accardo, but the story really reeks of BS reporting. Granted, Cito hasn't handled recent situations very nicely, but the players are the ones playing, and he's right.

bluejays · 10-02-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaolinFlame

In colder news, haha stupid Redsox?

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ba...438/story.html

I don't see how that would be funny, and if true, those people should be shot.

Romanrules · 10-02-2009, 06:04 PM

what are some good websites to keep tabs on the Jays? i know the djf one, but are their any other good ones?