WAP Leadership race down to two...

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Slava

I absolutely agree with that. In the same breath though I believe that the best way to accomplish this is through a strong and funded public system.

Fair enough.

I'm of the opinion that the gov't should be a floor that encourages people to climb above it.

[HPLovecraft]

WAP WAP WAP WAP WAP!

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Slava

I just have to ask how in the world Smith will repair healthcare and education and at the same cut taxes and reduce the very system delivering those services at the same time?

Looks good on paper (as does Smith for the record), but I have yet to see anything other than rhetoric. Just because you say that is the goal and over-arching theme doesn't mean that your plan will actually work here. Before you bother with the obvious "she/we will cut away the fat and streamline the system" that is just rhetoric. As a voter and user of these systems I want to know where the cuts will be and what kind of impact these will have on the delivery of what I believe to be fundamental systems in our society.

Then visit her website. She went into it a bit last night as well. Video of the debate will be posted on our website... sometime. (We're pretty swamped right now, sorry!) You could watch that as well.

[Barnes]

I went to private school and feel that I was at a disadvantage because of it. Private school is fine for those that excel in math and science but for someone like me who excels in the arts, (yes fotze, art fag) I struggled and wasn't offered the opportunities to achieve in the areas that interested me. I suffered a lower academic average than I could have had and had a lot of doors slammed shut on me because of it. Universities are only interested in one number and don't take into account the fact that I took physics 30, chem 30, math 30, math 31, bio 30, english 30, social 30. My average was lower because I took all the hardest courses (all in French to boot) and I would have easily gotten in by taking a couple of slack courses. They didn't care and no one told me that. I spent years finding my own way to what I wanted.

So no, the private system isn't perfect always.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Fair enough.

I'm of the opinion that the gov't should be a floor that encourages people to climb above it.

As do I. Despite how my posts likely come off here I'm fairly far right fiscally...its just that my fiscal conservatism means that sometimes its a good thing for the government to go into debt. The problem is that the whole catch phrase of "fiscally conservative" means almost nothing anymore. Which party would define themselves as anything other than this, afterall? I think that it was CIBC Wood Gundy that was giving a passing grade to the NDP platform last election period (as in stating that it was fiscally sound and not endorsing the policies themselves). Few would take the position that they are fiscal conservatives!

The government should set a floor and protect the disadvantaged and weakest in our society. It should protect everyones rights and not only encourage growth, but encourage our best and brightest to be just that. In my eyes these two points are just important as the other. Because I don't believe that the WRA, or any party to the far right for that matter, can be trusted to uphold the public healthcare system, public education system or even remain within the Canada Pension Plan I couldn't consider them as my choice for government until that trust is earned. Blanket statements about fixing the system, lowering taxes and basically having the "obvious solution" that apparently everyone else involved is just too daft to see doesn't do that for me.

[starseed]

This is strange. I would not be against a Smith government, but I would be adamantly opposed to Dyrholm and Willerton.

What would a separate Alberta be like for me? I would bet I would not have equal marriage rights or equal adoption rights, and I would be back to being a marginalized second class citizen. The only plus I can think of, is that Calgary's gay community would probably become less fractured as we would have an evil common enemy to fight against. :/

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by starseed

This is strange. I would not be against a Smith government, but I would be adamantly opposed to Dyrholm and Willerton.

What would a separate Alberta be like for me? I would bet I would not have equal marriage rights or equal adoption rights, and I would be back to being a marginalized second class citizen. The only plus I can think of, is that Calgary's gay community would probably become less fractured as we would have an evil common enemy to fight against. :/

This is interesting. What are the divisive issues in the Calgary gay community? Something I have never thought about asking about. Seems like a pretty coherent group.

I guess it is pretty closed minded for me to assume that everyone would be on the same page. I have even been referred to as pretty cool, for a straight guy. I guess I am not so cool.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by starseed

This is strange. I would not be against a Smith government, but I would be adamantly opposed to Dyrholm and Willerton.

What would a separate Alberta be like for me? I would bet I would not have equal marriage rights or equal adoption rights, and I would be back to being a marginalized second class citizen. The only plus I can think of, is that Calgary's gay community would probably become less fractured as we would have an evil common enemy to fight against. :/

Whatever your particular issues...

It would talk a continental shift to move the majority (more than 15%ish) of Albertans to vote for separation.

I wouldnt vote for it for the sheer fact that Quebec and its "separatist movement" has proved to be a monumental waste of time and a huge joke. Why would Alberta want to be even mentioned in the same breath as them.

Those who believe in separation today, obviously dont grasp the actual problems with it. Its great to give mighty speeches about freedom, its another thing to walk the long road of hardship that particular movement would put us all on.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Slava

The government should set a floor and protect the disadvantaged and weakest in our society. It should protect everyones rights and not only encourage growth, but encourage our best and brightest to be just that.

But aren't those two areas exclusive (in the real world)?

Public schools shouldn't pay teachers $100k/year (what I'm supposing a top-notch private school teacher would make) because is inefficient use of such a limited budget, but without a private school option the "best and brightest" teachers are encouraged to work in a more lucrative field.

So how do you encourage the best and brightest teachers if you do not accept that not everyone will be taught by them?

Universal excellence is niave, universality leads to mediocrity.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Barnes

This is interesting. What are the divisive issues in the Calgary gay community? Something I have never thought about asking about. Seems like a pretty coherent group.

I guess it is pretty closed minded for me to assume that everyone would be on the same page. I have even been referred to as pretty cool, for a straight guy. I guess I am not so cool.

In a community filled with drama queens, there is understandably going to be petty issues that come up. They have boiled over to a point where one nightclub owner is trying to manipulate the community to his own ends, and it has set off feuds with other businesses and organizations like the Pride Calgary Planning Committee. It is just really stupid.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is there even such a thing as 'pushing' personal views onto someone on a message board?

We all post here to share opinions.

Dude, 'push' was your word (your post) not mine. Sorry my humour was lost on you. I just found it humourous that someone who's posted >18,000 times suggests he's never pushed his personal opinion on anyone.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Slava

Azure....again that is just rhetoric though. Those are broad-based and general sweeping comments not actual concrete solutions to anything. They are also old ideas...the Liberals and NDP have made similar recommendations about healthcare systems through Europe and even a guy who I'm sure you respect and admire...Michael Moore. Say it ain't so though Azure...you aren't actually advocating something that he put forward are you!!?

Believe it or not, Micheal Moore makes some good points in his recent movie about Wall Street. Until he turns in a screeching loon that is.

I absolutely think that we should start looking internationally and implement a more two-tiered program that can help reduce costs.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you that Universal Health Care sucks. Because I would honestly be lying to you. I have received phenomenal health care in the past here in town, but I believe it was from sort of a private clinic. Don't really know how it works, but there is a difference in how the clinic in run compared to a public clinic in the middle of Calgary.

It was covered of course, but the way it is setup is different. I even mentioned in the other thread that we should encourage MORE private clinics to be setup and allow them to draw people AWAY from the emergency rooms.

In Manitoba, at least in the places were I have been to get health care, people were actually intentionally going to the emergency room because they had a damn cold. I asked some of them why and they said the waiting list wasn't as long there.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It is?!? That's news to me.

You should take a look at the top ten health care systems in the world, and see how many how some form of a two-tiered system.

Lets take a look.

1. France - two tiered system.
2. Italy - two tiered system.
3. San Marino - Universal.
4. Andorra - Universal.
5. Malta - two tiered system.
6. Singapore - two tiered system.
7. Spain - Universal.
8. Oman - two tiered system.
9. Austria - tough to figure out. I assume its Universal.
10. Japan - two tiered system.
11. Norway - Universal.
12. Portugal - two tiered system.
13. Monaco - Private.
14. Greece - two tiered system.
15. Iceland - Couldn't figure out.
16. Luxembourg - Couldn't figure out.
17. Netherlands - two tiered system.
18. United Kingdom - two tiered system.
19. Ireland - two tiered system.
20. Switzerland - two tiered, but WAY more private than public.

12 out of the 20 are two tiered, including 6 out of the top 10, with one unknown.

Yeah, two-tiered health care doesn't work. Just ask all the citizens of those top ten countries that have two-tiered health care.

Oh, and the population of the top ten countries with a single payer system?

San Marino - 30,000
Andorra - 85,000
Spain - 50 million.

So sorry, but you're completely WRONG. Two-tiered health care DOES work. You're just one of those people Cowperson was talking about.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Why don't we figure out a way to offer those services and generate that revenue in Canada while maintaining the core of the same system?

Answer: Shrill hysteria.

Cowperson

Despite the evidence clearly showing that two-tiered health care works very well throughout the world, you still deny it.

And yes dammit, I went and looked up every single country on that list and found out what kind of health care they have.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Slava

Nevermind the fact that it doesn't work better as others have already pointed out. I am of the opinion that no one should be denied care or be given sub-standard care because someone else has more money or better financial standing.

In decades gone by fire departments used to operate for profit. This meant that if your house was on fire and couldn't pay then you lost it (or at the very least suffered the consequences). This is the same moral argument as it is for healthcare.

Again, you're wrong.

There is no factual basis to what is actually your OPINION that two-tiered health care doesn't work.

See post above.

You're just promoting more of the shrill hysteria that keeps us from actually fixing our health care system.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Slava

How is wanting truly universal healthcare an empty ideal? I am just stating that I think that healthcare ought to be available to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. Wasn't it you who had the heart surgery as a child (discussed in another thread)? You of all people should understand my position here I would think?

Its an empty ideal because according to the WHO the best systems in the world are two-tiered.

Oh, and just in case that shrill hysteria you were promoting came in the way, people still get good quality of health care in many of those top countries.

And don't take it personally that I'm picking on you. I just like making fun of people who don't know what they're talking about.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by starseed

This is strange. I would not be against a Smith government, but I would be adamantly opposed to Dyrholm and Willerton.

What would a separate Alberta be like for me? I would bet I would not have equal marriage rights or equal adoption rights, and I would be back to being a marginalized second class citizen. The only plus I can think of, is that Calgary's gay community would probably become less fractured as we would have an evil common enemy to fight against. :/

There won't ever be a separate Alberta.

Unless 3/4 of the province radically changes their viewpoint.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Azure

You should take a look at the top ten health care systems in the world, and see how many how some form of a two-tiered system.

Lets take a look.

1. France - two tiered system.
2. Italy - two tiered system.
3. San Marino - Universal.
4. Andorra - Universal.
5. Malta - two tiered system.
6. Singapore - two tiered system.
7. Spain - Universal.
8. Oman - two tiered system.
9. Austria - tough to figure out. I assume its Universal.
10. Japan - two tiered system.
11. Norway - Universal.
12. Portugal - two tiered system.
13. Monaco - Private.
14. Greece - two tiered system.
15. Iceland - Couldn't figure out.
16. Luxembourg - Couldn't figure out.
17. Netherlands - two tiered system.
18. United Kingdom - two tiered system.
19. Ireland - two tiered system.
20. Switzerland - two tiered, but WAY more private than public.

12 out of the 20 are two tiered, including 6 out of the top 10, with one unknown.

Yeah, two-tiered health care doesn't work. Just ask all the citizens of those top ten countries that have two-tiered health care.

Oh, and the population of the top ten countries with a single payer system?

San Marino - 30,000
Andorra - 85,000
Spain - 50 million.

So sorry, but you're completely WRONG. Two-tiered health care DOES work. You're just one of those people Cowperson was talking about.



Despite the evidence clearly showing that two-tiered health care works very well throughout the world, you still deny it.

And yes dammit, I went and looked up every single country on that list and found out what kind of health care they have.

How many universal systems are there in the world in your opinion? Based on how you seem to define universal vs. two-tier, that would be an interesting list in my opinion, I would be surprised if you could find even 10 universal systems in the world. By your definition, Canada would have to be considered to be a country with a two-tiered system. What your stats clearly indicate is that private health systems are the worst systems in the world.

[CrusaderPi]

Bill Clinton was on the Daily Show today. He said we spent the second most per capita on health care. USA was #1. I'm going to waaaaaay out on the limb here and say neither system is all it's cracked up to be.

Maybe now would be a good time to cut all the rhetoric and figure out something that'll work better. Maybe?

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Video of the debate will be posted on our website... sometime. (We're pretty swamped right now, sorry!) You could watch that as well.

Cory is getting the video off the camera as we speak. It is quite long, so it will have to be broke into segments.

He will not be editting anything out; including his own flub up of calling Danielle.... Diane. Not once but TWICE.

For those of you discussing healthcare you might enjoy this read.

http://www.corymorgan.com/?p=309

BTW: France has a universal coverage system, it's just that it allows an increased amount of private provision. They are consistently ranked number one.

[Cheese]

Wap leadership eh?
Just the sounds of it bring forward thoughts of la cosa nostra!

Seriously Alberta...right or righter...