Obama address to Congress

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Just to add to that--even the so-called "public option" is just medicare-style public health insurance--not a single-payer system. One of the biggest problems with this health care bill is that it addresses only one of the two major challenges U.S. health care faces: access. It doesn't address the issue that will in the end bring the whole system down: rising costs.

A true single-payer system would help. But that was never even discussed, and probably would have been even less likely to make it out of committee.

Obama's mistake (if we can call it that--his hands are a little bit tied) is in trying to untangle the Gordian knot here. It's time to cut the thing in half and start over, but no-one seems able to do that. Failing that, reforms that improve access are nice, but they'll result in escalating costs over time, which in the long run is a major problem.

He won't. It's a classic example of what Saul Bellow called "soft nihilism" or "nihilism without the void" in America. Ignoring your deeper problems with cultural materialism.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by peter12

The Atlantic has a brilliant piece up on reforming healthcare, including the huge drawbacks of a single payer system.



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

Good post, and that's the key here - the US "system" is one twisted pyramid and Obama is "solving it" by throwing a big bag of cash at it. Just like he solved other problems by throwing bags of money at banks, auto makers.......

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Agreed. If US pays higher taxes than Canada, why's their healthcare so bad?

This is an excellent question. They don't really pay higher taxes (I did an analysis for median income earners in another thread--it works out to being ever so slightly higher in the U.S. if you include average health care premiums, slightly lower if you don't) but about the same as we do in Canada--my feeling is we get more bang for our buck.

It's fine to build a government that's not involved in massive entitlement programs. But if you do, you should also keep taxes very low, and that hasn't really happened in America.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

He won't. It's a classic example of what Saul Bellow called "soft nihilism" or "nihilism without the void" in America. Ignoring your deeper problems with cultural materialism.

I would have said "he can't"--but I think in principle we pretty much agree here.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I would have said "he can't"--but I think in principle we pretty much agree here.

He can't is probably more appropriate. He's just as ignorant as most.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

As a Canadian, I read this and think it can't be any worse than what the 'free market' is already doing.

If they are going to go broke, wouldn't you rather have healthcare along the way?

Very recent history suggests to me that any change from the current system would be a welcome, cheaper solution. Private healthcare in the states looks exactly like you would expect an unregulated large segment of the economy might look.

If you're going to hell, you might as well bring snacks.

You honestly believe that the US health care system is "unregulated free market"? If you do, then I honestly believe you don't know what "unregulated" and "free" and "market" means....

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I disagree....it was great speech but its intention to unify things will backfire enormously i am afraid.

He essentially called the Republicans a bunch of lying liars....and actually admitted that about the Dems recently as well when he used the 30 million number.

So much for his platform of bipartisanship....as that speech threw it all out the window and ratcheted up the "politics" going forward.

It was a great speech because Obama finally realized that the Republicans have no interest in bipartisanship regarding this issue. Their goal is to kill any reform. The speech was great as I think it was aimed more at blue dog democrats. I am not sure what he is suppose to do with people who:

a) allege that Obama will kill Grandma;
b) allege that Obama will provide health care for illegal aliens; and
c) Stephen Hawking would not be alive if he was a British citizen

amongst many other lies. I am not sure what he was suppose to do, leave such absolute fabrications out there without any repudiation?

[GirlySports]

I was talking to my cousin in California today and she gave me two extreme examples of two people who recently got laid off in the airline industry.

One guy has a wife and 4 daughters. He's planned ahead on his $48 per hour salary and has health insurance on his family that he's paying for from his savings and his wifes job as a nurse. The other guy has a wife and 3 kids , loaded up his Ranger Bass Boat over the Labor Day weekend and gripes about not having health insurance covereage for his family because he can't afford it. He can however afford the Ranger Bass Boat.

Also she said using President Obamas figure last night of 30 million uninsured Americans, that's 10% of our Population if we're at 300 Million Americans, which means that 90% of Americans have insurance.

Do we really think it's a good thing to totally overhaul a system that's affording coverage to 90% of the populace?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

You honestly believe that the US health care system is "unregulated free market"? If you do, then I honestly believe you don't know what "unregulated" and "free" and "market" means....

For sure it is regulated, just not in any judicious fashion that serves the interest of the public in any way. Is industry created regulation really regulation? From the looks of things, it seems more like a business strategy.

Is anyone out there saying the current healthcare system in the US works?

Being kicked off my insurance because I had the audacity to get sick doesn't sound like regulation to me, and I would venture to say there are others who would agree.

While what I said may have been overly simplistic I think philosophically we can agree.

I know you're a free wheelin' dude though, so maybe we won't.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

This is an excellent question. They don't really pay higher taxes (I did an analysis for median income earners in another thread--it works out to being ever so slightly higher in the U.S. if you include average health care premiums, slightly lower if you don't) but about the same as we do in Canada--my feeling is we get more bang for our buck.

It's fine to build a government that's not involved in massive entitlement programs. But if you do, you should also keep taxes very low, and that hasn't really happened in America.

I remember that thread.

The results were a bit surprising, but I think they were also skewed.

If we would simply take the MIDDLE class and compare the two countries, we'd find that the US middle class pays a LOT more taxes than the middle class does here in Canada.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

It was a great speech because Obama finally realized that the Republicans have no interest in bipartisanship regarding this issue. Their goal is to kill any reform. The speech was great as I think it was aimed more at blue dog democrats. I am not sure what he is suppose to do with people who:

a) allege that Obama will kill Grandma;
b) allege that Obama will provide health care for illegal aliens; and
c) Stephen Hawking would not be alive if he was a British citizen

amongst many other lies. I am not sure what he was suppose to do, leave such absolute fabrications out there without any repudiation?

For about the 10th time, Obama doesn't need the Republicans to pass this bill.

Choosing to focus on them is admitting that the bill sucks, without the actual admitting that the bill sucks.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

For sure it is regulated, just not in any judicious fashion that serves the interest of the public in any way. Is industry created regulation really regulation? From the looks of things, it seems more like a business strategy.

Is anyone out there saying the current healthcare system in the US works?

Being kicked off my insurance because I had the audacity to get sick doesn't sound like regulation to me, and I would venture to say there are others who would agree.

While what I said may have been overly simplistic I think philosophically we can agree.

I know you're a free wheelin' dude though, so maybe we won't.

Hey I actually agree it looks like a business strategy, I called it a cartel between corporations and the government earlier in the thread.

No the US system doesn't work but to blame it on unregulated free market is simply incorrect.

I am not even going into the free market healt care debate, because that is not going to happen in our lifetime, not in the US, not anywhere else. That's fine.

But if you look at what Obama's trying to do - he's pouring money into a defunct system without actually reforming it. And that wouldn't be fine with me if I was an US citizen.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Hey I actually agree it looks like a business strategy, I called it a cartel between corporations and the government earlier in the thread.

No the US system doesn't work but to blame it on unregulated free market is simply incorrect.

I am not even going into the free market healt care debate, because that is not going to happen in our lifetime, not in the US, not anywhere else. That's fine.

But if you look at what Obama's trying to do - he's pouring money into a defunct system without actually reforming it. And that wouldn't be fine with me if I was an US citizen.

Obama says this to you.

But what we have also seen in these last months is the same partisan spectacle that only hardens the disdain many Americans have toward their own government. Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics.

And then 15 min later he says this.

Everyone in this room knows what will happen if we do nothing. Our deficit will grow. More families will go bankrupt. More businesses will close. More Americans will lose their coverage when they are sick and need it most. And more will die as a result. We know these things to be true.

Hope and change!!!!

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Azure

Obama says this to you.

But what we have also seen in these last months is the same partisan spectacle that only hardens the disdain many Americans have toward their own government.

That sounds like something Louis XIV of France would say...

[The Special One]

The real problem are leecher countries like Canada that steal expensive American investement in research and development by making their new prescription drugs available here at a fraction of the real cost. American health care reform is a bad thing for people here in Canada. Remember, they have the best medical care in the world. The issue is cost, not quality.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

That sounds like something Louis XIV of France would say...

Well, considering what the US government has been doing in the way of efficient management of its programs and resources, why shouldn't everyone have a HUGE distrust of everything that they do?

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Azure

For about the 10th time, Obama doesn't need the Republicans to pass this bill.

Choosing to focus on them is admitting that the bill sucks, without the actual admitting that the bill sucks.

Correct Azure, that is why I said the speech was aimed at blue dog democrats. The speech in no way, shape or form focused on Republicans. He pointed out for a 2 minute part of the speech the lies that were being spread by Republicans in an effort to clarify the issue. I am not sure if he was suppose to just leave the lies about death panels, illegal immigrants and abortion in the public circle unanswered in your opinion, but he opted for a different course of action. He opted to clarify bald faced lies that were being spread by Republicans and Conservatives in general.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Correct Azure, that is why I said the speech was aimed at blue dog democrats. The speech in no way, shape or form focused on Republicans. He pointed out for a 2 minute part of the speech the lies that were being spread by Republicans in an effort to clarify the issue. I am not sure if he was suppose to just leave the lies about death panels, illegal immigrants and abortion in the public circle unanswered in your opinion, but he opted for a different course of action. He opted to clarify bald faced lies that were being spread by Republicans and Conservatives in general.

Why do those lies matter?

Do they somehow influence the Democrats and keep them from voting for the bill?

[The Special One]

Originally Posted by Azure

Why do those lies matter?

Do they somehow influence the Democrats and keep them from voting for the bill?

Yes, they do. Mid-term elections are less than fourteen months away. A large majority of the general public are buying into these lies.

It was wrong to go into Iraq, but popular at the time. That's why there wasn't a huge opposition to it from Democrats. Look at the PATRIOT act. it passed 99-1 in the Senate but is now extremely unpopular.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Why do those lies matter?

Do they somehow influence the Democrats and keep them from voting for the bill?

They matter because they've allowed the GOP to control the debate over this issue--and to do so with total fabrications and nonsense rather than, you know, constructive criticism and clear policy alternatives.

When people are showing up at rallies with Hitler moustaches painted on Obama's face--you know you're not dealing with the best and brightest here. The GOP went for the lowest common denominator and if nothing else they should be punished for that.

Calling them liars is a start--and it shows an assertiveness that I think this presidency has needed for a while. They ARE liars. And those who believe their lies are morons. Let's call a spade a spade.