Battle of Alberta Part 2: Eskimos at Stampeders - Labour Day Classics

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Stamps add Hughes and George though it's doubtful they are ready to roll on Friday. But still good news for Stamps fans.

Excellent news.

[troutman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_League

In the days when sports teams were financed almost entirely by ticket sales, the CFL and NFL were, financially speaking, on relatively equal footing, and CFL teams could sign top U.S. college football stars such as Johnny Rodgers and Joe Theismann. During the 1950s and 1960s exhibition games were played between CFL and NFL/AFL teams using a mixture of each league's rules. The last such exhibition game saw the CFL's Hamilton Tiger-Cats defeat the AFL's Buffalo Bills, the only time in which a Canadian team defeated an American team in the series.

Currently, the difference in average salaries between the CFL and NFL is significant, with only a handful of CFL players making more than the NFL minimum.

Despite a common belief that the average NFL player is more talented than the average CFL player, the disparity in talent is not nearly as great as the disparity in compensation. Due to the difference in rules, pace of play and field size between the two leagues, they mostly compete for different types of players. Mobility and quickness are typically valued over size and strength in the CFL, and CFL teams often recruit skilled players who would be considered undersized by NFL standards. For this reason, there are few players who have played in both leagues, and even fewer who have achieved success in both leagues. Only two people have been elected to both the Canadian Football Hall of Fame and the U.S. Pro Football Hall of Fame: quarterback Warren Moon and coach Bud Grant. There are many cases of CFLers going to the NFL and having success, such as Pro BowlersJoe Horn, Jeff Garcia, Brendon Ayanbadejo and Doug Flutie and Pro Football Hall of Fame coach Marv Levy. On the other hand, there have also been cases of NFL stars coming to the CFL and failing to excel, such as the 2006 "big splash" signing of Ricky Williams.[33]

Simon Fraser University will be playing football in NCAA Div II.

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/foo...851/story.html

[rubecube]

^^ If Wikipedia says it, it must be true. Not a hint of bias in that article.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

Kevin Arbet - plays in Arena league, in all likelyhood would not make a CFL roster.
Collin Ashton - Playing in Europe - would not make a CFL roster
Sam Baker - was a NCAA rookie in 2004, it appears.
Darnell Bing - doesn't seem wanted in the NFL - at best on par with CFL starters.
John David Booty - Injured and redshirted in 2004. Too inexperienced at that point even if he wasn't.
William Buchanon - Bouncing around as a practice squad player in the NFL, at the very best, on par with CFL starters.
Reggie Bush - Probably would be the best RB in the supposed game.
Dominique Byrd - basically an NFL washout at the best point in his career.
Matt Cassel - was playing BASEBALL for USC in 2004, according to wikipedia, can't be on the team.
Shaun Cody - likely a bit better then any of the CFL players.
Fred Davis - freshman on 2004, didn't play much.
Sedrick Ellis - freshman, basically didn't play.
Matt Grootegoed - topped out being a CFL player that he is today.
Alex Holmes - likely would have been a decent player for the supposed game
Ryan Kalil - may have been ok, I still think its pushing it to think 19 year olds could match up with the strength of pro football players.
Ryan Killeen - Kicker, likely a little bit worse then the CFL kicker on the team.
David Kirtman - never caught on with any NFL team, but was good in 2004. Effectiveness in the supposed game might depend on which set of rules were being used.
Lawrence Jackson - seems like a good player in 2004, but again, was only 19 years old.
Dwayne Jarrett - seems like a good player in 2004, again, was only 18 years old.
Winston Justice - ok player
Jason Leach - NFL washout, at best, on par with CFL starters.
Matt Leinart - probably a better QB then the CFL players, but the margin wouldn't be very much, as the CFL QB would have more years of experience.
Oscar Lua - backup linebacker in 2004, never played a game in the NFL, wouldn't make a CFL roster.
Deuce Lutui - probobly an effective player for USC against a CFL team.
Tom Malone - punter, may have been slightly better then an average CFL punter, on par with the best CFL punters.
Clay Matthews III - Redshirt in 2004.
Fred Matua - never played in NFL, likely a small downgrade from a CFLer, even at his peak.
Chris McFoy - AT BEST, on par with CFL recievers.
Jason Mitchell - washed out of the NFL and the CFL
Fili Moala - Redshirt in 2004
Mike Patterson - may have been better then the CFL players he'd play against
Ryan Powdrell - washed out of NFL, would not be better than CFLers.
Drew Radovich - freshmen, don't think he played.
Chilo Rachal - Redshirt in 2004
LaJuan Ramsey - bouncing around NFL, Likely worse then CFLers.
Keith Rivers - would have been 18 in 2004
Frostee Rucker - may have been a good player is a supposed game.
Dallas Sartz - basically washed out of NFL, not better than CFL players.
Steve Smith - 2004 seems to be before his best playing days at USC
Matt Spanos - No NFL experience, CFL players would be better
Lofa Tatupu - probobly a good player for the USC team in the supposed game.
Terrell Thomas - reserve player in 2004 at USC
John Walker - not likely to be better then CFL players
Scott Ware - not likely to be better then CFL players
Chauncey Washington - academically inelligible, redshirted in 2004.
Lee Webb - wiki page in pretty undetailed, might be a good player.
LenDale White - probobly pretty good vs CFLers
Kyle Williams - played three games in NFL, may have been adequate in game.
Mike Williams - did not play in 2004
Thomas Williams - mostly special teams in 2004
Eric Wright - played at UNLV in 2004
Manuel Wright - backup in 2004, bounced around football, not likely better then CFLers.
Justin Wyatt - considering his writeup on Wikipedia, wasn't that good.

So, lets review here:

About 5 players that may be better then any CFLer, still for these players, a lack of experience and years of workouts would minimize the margin over CFLers.

About 7 additional players that may be around equal to an average CFLer. Again the experience thing though too.

That leaves about 30 positions on the roster where the CFL players would be better, and many of those positions would be significantly better, even before the lack of experience taken into account.

And we are talking about one of the best college teams of all time here! Do you seriously think that team would compete with a CFL team?

Remember, we can go by the future potential of players, we have to go by what they were in the college year.

Seriously, the CFL team would win by 10 touchdowns, every time.

All these players went on to be NFL Players.

Most of them never played a game. Or played only a couple of games. Practice roster players aren't CFL caliber, with perhaps a few exceptions.

Also, most CFLers did the same thing, many of them actually playing for a while in the NFL, at least longer then the average on your list. And then after it became clear they weren't going to make it, they went to seek the next best option, which is playing in the CFL. If all of the washed out players you listed were better than CFLers, many of them would have been contacted by the CFL to play. They weren't. I think that says a lot about their ability compared to most CFLers.

[flip]

Originally Posted by rubecube

^^ If Wikipedia says it, it must be true. Not a hint of bias in that article.

Well, except for the fact that the article is true.

Sure it overlooks the fact that a lot of the best NFLers would clean up in the CFL and never play here because of the salary disparities but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of NFLers would get eaten alive in the CFL.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by flip

Well, except for the fact that the article is true.

Sure it overlooks the fact that a lot of the best NFLers would clean up in the CFL and never play here because of the salary disparities but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of NFLers would get eaten alive in the CFL.

Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong point of view, but I see it this way. Most star NFLers are miles away from star CFLers. You can't tell me that the top QBs in the NFL (let's say Brees, Manning, Brady, and Rivers) wouldn't light up the CFL. However, I know for a fact that Burris, Calvillo, and Ray would flame out in the NFL.

There may be less talent disparity between the bottom and mid-tier and NFL players, and the star players of the CFL but then that's not a fair comparisson. At that point you need to be comparing them with the bottom and mid-tier players of the CFL and, at that point, I think the gap widens again.

[flip]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong point of view, but I see it this way. Most star NFLers are miles away from star CFLers. You can't tell me that the top QBs in the NFL (let's say Brees, Manning, Brady, and Rivers) wouldn't light up the CFL. However, I know for a fact that Burris, Calvillo, and Ray would flame out in the NFL.

There may be less talent disparity between the bottom and mid-tier and NFL players, and the star players of the CFL but then that's not a fair comparisson. At that point you need to be comparing them with the bottom and mid-tier players of the CFL and, at that point, I think the gap widens again.

I see your point but that isn't really what the article is talking about IMO or at least the point that I got out of it. Different leagues require different talents and not all talents are transferable between leagues.

I see the article as talking about guys like Weston Dressler, Ken-yon Rambo, Geroy Simon, offensive and defensive linemen etc.

Guys like Dressler and Rambo can (most likely) only be successful in the CFL because the CFL game gives them an advantage over NFL guys because being small in the CFL isn't really a huge detriment as long as the guy is fast and has good hands.

Most NFL linemen (be it offensive or defensive) wouldn't last in the CFL for five minutes because although very fast and mobile for big men, 400lb guys just can't compete and a 65yd wide field. They simply wouldn't have enough mobility.

Same argument could be made for guys like Gates, Gonzalez and Clark (all TEs) who probably wouldn't last 5 minutes in the CFL.

That being said the best of the best of the NFL would likely be at worst mediocre in the CFL and possibly be huge stars. But no guaranteed.

Many guys - including players like Brady, Tomlinson, Urlacher, Ray Lewis etc - might not have what it takes for the CFL for a variety of reasons.

Perhaps they just can't deal with the extra guy, the larger ball, one less down, the larger field etc.

I'll reinterate for clarity. The talent in the NFL is definitely top notch and better than the CFL. That is to say that the TOP END talent in the NFL is definitely better. However, even they might not be able to adapt to the Canadian game. In addition to this lots of the top end CFL talent who are perceived to not be good enough for the NFL are actually WAY better suited to the CFL and as such shouldn't be called "NFL washouts" because it is like comparing beach volleyball to beach volleyball. Sure they are the same sports but when you change almost every single rule it is impossible to claim that being good in one league guarantees being good in the other league.

In essence, sure the NFL is probably better but not all NFL superstars would succeed in the CFL and not all CFL stars are "not good enough" for the NFL, they just have a set of talents that is more suited to the CFL.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong point of view, but I see it this way. Most star NFLers are miles away from star CFLers. You can't tell me that the top QBs in the NFL (let's say Brees, Manning, Brady, and Rivers) wouldn't light up the CFL. However, I know for a fact that Burris, Calvillo, and Ray would flame out in the NFL.

There may be less talent disparity between the bottom and mid-tier and NFL players, and the star players of the CFL but then that's not a fair comparisson. At that point you need to be comparing them with the bottom and mid-tier players of the CFL and, at that point, I think the gap widens again.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a talent/ability gap between the NFL and the CFL.

The way I see it, for the most part, to make it in the NFL, you need a combination of three things, Talent/Ability, Size, and age (still young means time to develop) - This matters less then the other two.

Generally, CFL players are players that fall slightly short in one (sometimes two) of the three. If they've got the talent/ability, they are just a little bit small; if they've got the size, they just aren't quite quick enough or good enough. If they had the size, and have developed the ability, they are too old to be given a shot in the NFL, because they aren't useful for the future.

That's the way I see it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by flip

I see your point but that isn't really what the article is talking about IMO or at least the point that I got out of it. Different leagues require different talents and not all talents are transferable between leagues.

I agree with this. I think a guy like Jared Zabransky (third string QB for Edmonton) is a perfect fit for the CFL, but clearly was not built for the NFL. Time will only tell with him since he's sitting behind Ray and Maas, but I remember thinking he might be a good CFL QB back when he was in college.

Guys like Dressler and Rambo can (most likely) only be successful in the CFL because the CFL game gives them an advantage over NFL guys because being small in the CFL isn't really a huge detriment as long as the guy is fast and has good hands.

I disagree with this. Guys like Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Desean Jackson, and Eddie Royal are all really small guys who are lighting up the NFL.

Most NFL linemen (be it offensive or defensive) wouldn't last in the CFL for five minutes because although very fast and mobile for big men, 400lb guys just can't compete and a 65yd wide field. They simply wouldn't have enough mobility.

Same argument could be made for guys like Gates, Gonzalez and Clark (all TEs) who probably wouldn't last 5 minutes in the CFL.

I think you're really underrating the athleticism of these guys. Some of the 40 times that these linemen are posting are absolutely freakish. Not to mention that the NFL seems to gradually be moving towards smaller defensive ends.

Covering guys like Gonzalez and Gates in a CFL endzone would be next to impossible due to the combination of their size and the size of the endzone.

That being said the best of the best of the NFL would likely be at worst mediocre in the CFL and possibly be huge stars. But no guaranteed.

I think most of them would, but that's all hypothetical. Unfortunately there isn't a large enough sample size to prove this one way or another.

[rubecube]

And here is the main reason why the CFL remains bush league and will never bring me back as more than a casual fan.

http://tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=290556

[The Special One]

This argument isn't really worth having as all the leagues are good in their own right. You have every right to enjoy your local CFL team, I didn't mean to come in here and dump on the league. I'm actually a huge Stampeders fan and rarely miss a game. I enjoy it for what it is - cheap entertainment, somewhere nice to go with friends and let off a little bit of steam.

All I was trying to say was that there's a reason many people find the CFL amateurish. The poster took offense to someone other that me commenting that "it's only the CFL" and he asked why the attitude. I simply tried to explain to him that the quality of football players in the CFL is poor, much poorer than even ten years ago, and that's the primary reason for this attitude.

Just look at the Stampeder's roster. I'll bet you money without even looking it up that at least 90% of the import players are all from the southern USA, places Kentucky, Louisiana, Georgia, Texas, Arkansas, etc. The reason for this is clear - there's not a whole lot of money to be made living in those states for poorly educated ex-NCAA players, even if they do have BS degrees from community colleges and smaller universities. They come up to Canada and play in the CFL to make some money. There's nothing wrong with this, they're just making an honest living playing a game that they love and providing entertainment to Canadians like me.

The problem is that some Canadians, like some of the ones posting in this thread, assume that CFL players are the guys that just missed out on the cut in the NFL. They think that their players are almost as good but are too small to make it in the big league. Having players like Jeff Garcia go down to San Francisco and light up the league certainly helps!

What you need to understand is this. The players from the southern USA who come up to the CFL are not the "almost made it in the NFL" guys. Most of the guys who missed out on the cut would rather get real jobs in the USA that pay more than they can make in the CFL. That's why you don't see a whole tonne of players from universities in California and New England, where most of the quality schools are, up here in the CFL. Why would you go and work your ass off for 40-80k Canadian a year up in Canada when you can easily make at least that in American dollars in a real job in your home country?

Again, enjoy it for what it is. Cheap fun. I like it too. I love watching the Stampeders, it's great fun to go down to McMahon, enjoy a few beers with your friends and have a good time. Just don't try to tell me that the CFL is anywhere near the quality of the NFL. You're lying to yourself.

[valo403]

I always love the 'NFL players aren't fast enough for the CFL' argument. It's convenient how that argument ignores the fact that the vast majority of NFL players put up the same if not better speed and agility times as their CFL counterparts. Sure testing and field speed are different things, but in the only quantifiable measure the difference is negligible at most.

That said it's a moronic argument as there really isn't any way to prove it either way. The only guys with NFL talent who play in the CFL are there because they've been cast away by the NFL, which obviously raises some questions about their supposed talent level.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And here is the main reason why the CFL remains bush league and will never bring me back as more than a casual fan.

http://tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=290556

I'll see your one and raise you:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...-mistake_N.htm

After a replay review and consultation by the officials, the touchdown was taken off the board. The 11-10 score stood. But after the game, referee Scott Green said the crew had made a mistake and that the touchdown should have counted.
"We should have let the play go through to the end," said Green.
The play originally was ruled penalty-free. No flags.
The NFL confirmed the mistake on Monday, but said the final score of the game will not change.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3594778

Ed Hochuli threw a flag on himself.
After blowing a call that helped the Denver Broncos beat the San Diego Chargers on Sunday, the referee admitted he made a mistake on Wednesday and is answering e-mails from some fans telling them that, according to multiple media reports.

[moon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And here is the main reason why the CFL remains bush league and will never bring me back as more than a casual fan.

http://tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=290556

Is that the way you feel after NFL refs decide games with their wrong calls?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I'll see your one and raise you:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...-mistake_N.htm



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3594778

Do you really want to get into a 'whose refs make more glaring errors' fight between the CFL and NFL? Both leagues have been guilty, but the CFL has made some notoriously bad errors in the last few years.

[flip]

Originally Posted by moon

Is that the way you feel after NFL refs decide THE EFFING SUPERBOWL with their wrong calls?

fixed. I'm referring of course to the blown call in the Seattle/Pitts Superbowl from a few years ago.



On another note, if I hear one more person - usually on US tv - refer to the Superbowl as the most watched thing on television or the biggest sporting event in the world I'm going to blow my brains out.

The World Cup of Soccer Final is about 10x more popular than the SuperBowl no matter what Americans keep telling themselves.

Oh, and I also hate anyone who refers to their team as "World Champions" (the Patriots even put it on their banners, ugh) I'm going to puke. Unless you compete against the world you aren't world anything. By the logic Americans use I am currently the World Champion of awesome. How you might ask? Well I said so and that is all it takes. Same logic as American sports. The worst ones are sports in which the US repeatedly, or at least occasionally, loses in the actual World Championships/Olympics like Basketball, Baseball etc.

[FoxMulder91]

Im really looking forward to the rematch on Friday
GO STAMPS GO

[moon]

Originally Posted by flip

fixed. I'm referring of course to the blown call in the Seattle/Pitts Superbowl from a few years ago.

They got that call right so I won't blame them for screwing up the Super Bowl, but they have blown calls that have decided games before.

Oh, and I also hate anyone who refers to their team as "World Champions" (the Patriots even put it on their banners, ugh) I'm going to puke. Unless you compete against the world you aren't world anything. By the logic Americans use I am currently the World Champion of awesome. How you might ask? Well I said so and that is all it takes. Same logic as American sports. The worst ones are sports in which the US repeatedly, or at least occasionally, loses in the actual World Championships/Olympics like Basketball, Baseball etc.

I guess it isn't technically right but there isn't a team in the world that plays in another league that could come close to beating the winner of the NFL, NHL, MLB or NBA.

There are no legitimate world championships of Baseball so not sure how the US has lost that and considering that the NBA and MLB have players from all over the world whether the US wins or loses at these sports wouldn't seem to matter.

[T@T]

CFL is brutal not because of inferior players but because of brutal rules..that one point for missing a FG is as stupid as giving assists to players in hockey if someone hits a post. There's no strategy, run,pass,kick..repeat if you can!

[pope04]

Originally Posted by T@T

There's no strategy, run,pass,kick..repeat if you can!

Run, run, pass, punt is so much better?

If the rouge is silly, what's fair catch?