Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose for humankind

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Azure

What exactly will that prove? I hate organized religion as much as the next person, but I don't really get why people have to get up on the pedestal and 'speak out' against it.

Wars
Terrorism
B-thump's slaughtering their kids because the lord told them too
The list goes on.

And I'm tired of theses freaks showing up at my door.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

What exactly will that prove? I hate organized religion as much as the next person, but I don't really get why people have to get up on the pedestal and 'speak out' against it.

Gay rights is a different story, because millions of people were being denied a basic right. Nobody is being denied anything by being involved in organized religion. It is there CHOICE afterall, to be a part of that organized religion.

Well I think 'come out' is the message, don't hide your non belief anymore, because the idea is when people see atheists aren't immoral, corrupt people the acceptance will grow.

The image of non believers is quite horrendous in many places, sadly the USA and a good chunk of the muslim world to name a few.

I think its better to attack a policy of organized religion than the organization itself, unless its the Vatican, I loathe the Vatican

But examples of speaking out would be for gay rights, the Vatican opposed a bill in the UN calling for all member countries to remove laws making gay sex no longer illegal.

Of course I oppose the Vatican's stance on Africa in regards to condoms and that has a direct deadly affect on human suffering.

I strongly oppose evangelical attempts to turn our public education systems to treat science with distrust, especially in the case of evolution, but it doesn't end there either.

To publically speak out and just say "booo organized religion!" really doesn't get us anywhere, to be specific and fight the battles secularists feel need to be fought is a better way.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

It really doesn't matter whether or not there is really a god/gods. The function of religion in society is to teach value systems. Religion is about how to live and be a good person. That has been corrupted a great deal over time, but there are some that still do. How you pray or what you call your higher power is not important. It's how you function within society. Organized religion is an attempt to create a common value system for society.

really? i dont need religion to not only know right from wrong, but to teach it to my children.

whose religion is "right" anyhow?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So if I have this right (which I may not, correct me if I'm wrong), koala bears didn't have to walk and swim 15000 kilometers from Turkey to Australia, because a few thousand years ago Australia wasn't very far away from Turkey.

Is that it?

Before the flood it is surmised that there was one large land mass. After the flood there may have been more than one. They may have been connected by a land bridge as well. I don't know.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Regarding my silly question about the boat, is it really that silly? I mean if that boat existed, it was the greatest thing ever built or ever will be built. They wouldn't have just torn it up for firewood.

Why would they have to leave the area quickly? They were the only people left on earth, weren't they? So there couldn't have been a threat from other people. And they were skilled at handling animals, so predators couldn't have forced them out. And they had plenty of experience with natural disasters. What could have forced them to leave the area quickly, leaving that awesome boat behind?

Wood from the ark wouldn't last for ever. Wood rots. Wood erodes. Wood is food and homes for animals. If I was Noah and his three sons I might have recycled parts of the ark in order to make smaller ships and other things. It would have been the only material available. There might be some drift wood as well but, the choices would be limited. Do you know of any wooden structure that is even a thousand years old and still recognizable? I don't.

The reason why I suggested that Noah would not have stuck around is the notion that the ark landed up high on a mountain. Living and growing crops are a lot easier down in the valleys. Fish would also have been a likely early food source. If I were in their shoes I would have followed the water as it receded.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by OBCT

Expulsion from the Garden (expulsion from God's direct presence) was the only possibility, short of scrapping the whole plan and starting over. All of humanity was indeed affected by the folly of two. They chose to satiate their curiosity and give in to the temptation of the Serpent, even in spite of the warnings of their creator, God. This opened their eyes to good and evil - something that could never be undone, and something that has forever been passed down from parent to child. To quote Don Henley, it truly was, "The end of the innocence."

Ignoring the whole "you speak for God and Don Henley" theme...

Do you believe a snake spoke to human beings? I know it's fun to dance around this kind of question, but it's a yes or no deal. You either believe a snake talked to people or you don't.

And why couldn't their eyes being open to good and evil not be undone? That tells me that god can't do something, and that throws a wrench into the whole thing.

Far as I can tell, God is all knowing, but he didn't see this apple transaction taking place (or did see and didn't do anything about it), and we're all still paying for it. And most of us will be paying for it forever.

[photon]

What fish? All the fresh water fish would have been killed by the salt from the oceans and the salt water fish by the sudden influx of fresh water.

Not to mention suffocating from all the sediment stirred up by the flood.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

really? i dont need religion to not only know right from wrong, but to teach it to my children.

whose religion is "right" anyhow?

I never said it was necessary; only that that is its proper function. You and your children may share value systems but your neighbours, who were taught by their parents, may not share yours. Religion is one way to educate a larger group of people of a shared group of values.

As "right" is a relative term, it is up to you to decide which, if any, is "right" for you.

I am not a religious person in any way. I have, however seen places where it is used properly and can be quite beneficial. We have all, I'm sure, heard of countless cases where that has not been the case. Doesn't mean religion can't hold a positive role in society.

[metallicat]

I seriously still want to know how big this ark would have had to be.

[DementedReality]

how does one distinguish a religion from a cult?

serious quesiton.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

What fish? All the fresh water fish would have been killed by the salt from the oceans and the salt water fish by the sudden influx of fresh water.

Not to mention suffocating from all the sediment stirred up by the flood.

The fish would have been basically fresh water and developed a tolerance for salt water as the oceans became saltier. This sediment you speak of would not have been so sever in a young earth. Our fresh water species do quite well in high water today. Some would have been lost but, others would have thrived with the increased food supply.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

how does one distinguish a religion from a cult?

serious quesiton.

Depends which "one". It's a matter of opinion again.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

A cult can mean anything from a small religious group to a "small, evil religious group, often with a single charismatic leader, that engages in brainwashing and other mind control techniques, believes that the end of the world is imminent, and collects large amounts of weaponry in preparation for a massive war"

edit: to add http://www.cultfaq.org/cultfaq-cult-definition.html also has a bit about the origin of the term "cult"

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I seriously still want to know how big this ark would have had to be.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I seriously still want to know how big this ark would have had to be.

I guess no body has answered you because if you really wanted to know you could just read Genesis. Genesis chapters 6 through ten gives the story of the flood including instructions on how it was built.

[Reggie Dunlop]

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well I think 'come out' is the message, don't hide your non belief anymore, because the idea is when people see atheists aren't immoral, corrupt people the acceptance will grow.

The image of non believers is quite horrendous in many places, sadly the USA and a good chunk of the muslim world to name a few.

I think its better to attack a policy of organized religion than the organization itself, unless its the Vatican, I loathe the Vatican

But examples of speaking out would be for gay rights, the Vatican opposed a bill in the UN calling for all member countries to remove laws making gay sex no longer illegal.

Of course I oppose the Vatican's stance on Africa in regards to condoms and that has a direct deadly affect on human suffering.

I strongly oppose evangelical attempts to turn our public education systems to treat science with distrust, especially in the case of evolution, but it doesn't end there either.

To publically speak out and just say "booo organized religion!" really doesn't get us anywhere, to be specific and fight the battles secularists feel need to be fought is a better way.

Well, that is pretty much what I'm saying.

There are a lot of things wrong with organized religion, so speak out against those specific things.

Don't just get up on your chair and tell people 'organized religion is the devil!'

It might be, but that doesn't accomplish anything.

I also think people, especially those involved in organized religion should be encouraged to ask more questions. Simply accepting something because your pastor told you it was true isn't good enough. Nobody, and I mean nobody is beyond reproach that ANYONE should believe every word they say without making for damn sure its true.

Also, this whole 'end times' garbage that has been brainwashing people for 50 years now needs to be exposed. It is just another example of a lie that organized religion has taken and polluted a bunch of people with.

See, I can get the hate on too.

But I think there needs to be substance to our argument. Doesn't help to simply bitch about organized religion.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I guess no body has answered you because if you really wanted to know you could just read Genesis. Genesis chapters 6 through ten gives the story of the flood including instructions on how it was built.

Got that right.

[troutman]

Creationism is meticulously broken down here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Problems With A Global Flood:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The fish would have been basically fresh water and developed a tolerance for salt water as the oceans became saltier. This sediment you speak of would not have been so sever in a young earth. Our fresh water species do quite well in high water today. Some would have been lost but, others would have thrived with the increased food supply.

I'm talking about the initial rain.. a species doesn't develop a tolerance over 40 days; populations change over time, not individuals.

The sediment is sufficient that it's responsible for all the geological strata all over the earth, millions upon millions of layers of sediment burying dead animals (which are sorted according to their age as opposed to sorted by their buoyancy if they were all deposited in the same flood), the sediment that is churned up by the supposed erosion that took place to form the grand canyon, all the mountains and valleys, to break the continents apart, but is not sufficient to kill the fish?

It doesn't matter, the amount of energy involved in that kind of release of water would boil all the fish on the planet anyway.

The only way to say there was a global flood is to say that God suspended the laws of physics to pull it off and then hid the evidence and created new misleading evidence afterward.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by troutman

Creationism is meticulously broken down here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

To quote the Moderator in this thread "no need to increase his google rank."

[Reggie Dunlop]

LOL.

Were there talking snakes on the Zoological Love Boat?