new LIFE photos of Nazi Germany

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're defining it differently now. I see a group of people targetting a specific group of people based on race or religion and mass killing them as a genocide.

Now you're trying to pin State sanctioning on it, which wasn't in your original statement. Again, I responded to your original statement and now you're moving your retorts in a different direction.

Seriously, are you actually reading what I am saying? It was the policy and plan of the German state to wipe out every single Jew in the world, and they pretty much killed every single one within their control. Are you trying to tell me it was the policy of Great Britain and/or the United States to exterminate Indians? If you are - you are nuts. The Indians were certainly treated as second-class citizens, but they were not rounded up and executed. You'd have more of an argument with Spain vis-a-vis Aztecs, but that was more "accidental" genocide.
The example of Turks/Armenians is a good one, but sadly I don't know enough about that to know how organized and purposeful it was. Otherwise, I am still aware of only 2 examples of purposeful extermination (not subjugation, discrimination, enslavement, occupation, etc) of a race of people - Jews in WW 2 and Tutsis in Rwanda.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Seriously, are you actually reading what I am saying? It was the policy and plan of the German state to wipe out every single Jew in the world, and they pretty much killed every single one within their control. Are you trying to tell me it was the policy of Great Britain and/or the United States to exterminate Indians? If you are - you are nuts. The Indians were certainly treated as second-class citizens, but they were not rounded up and executed. You'd have more of an argument with Spain vis-a-vis Aztecs, but that was more "accidental" genocide.
The example of Turks/Armenians is a good one, but sadly I don't know enough about that to know how organized and purposeful it was. Otherwise, I am still aware of only 2 examples of purposeful extermination (not subjugation, discrimination, enslavement, occupation, etc) of a race of people - Jews in WW 2 and Tutsis in Rwanda.

I can read what you're saying now. You've turned to the level of organization behind the genocide. But that's not what you said at the start, which is what I was responding to. If you can't understand that, seeing as I quoted what you wrote like three times, then I really have nothing left to say.

You've moved on to nothing being as organized on a massive scale as the Holocaust, which I can't disagree with.

Jesus christ man, just because you change your direction it doesn't mean that I'm not reading the posts.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by nik-

I can read what you're saying now. You've turned to the level of organization behind the genocide. But that's not what you said at the start, which is what I was responding to. If you can't understand that, seeing as I quoted what you wrote like three times, then I really have nothing left to say.

You've moved on to nothing being as organized on a massive scale as the Holocaust, which I can't disagree with.

Jesus christ man, just because you change your direction it doesn't mean that I'm not reading the posts.

I reiterate my position that you can't or won't read. Here is my initial post in this thread on the subject:

That would also be because, until Rwanda, the Holocaust was the only instance of someone specifically targetting a racial group for extermination. The Gypsies, Poles, Russians, Chinese, Serbs, etc all suffered enormous losses, but were not specifically targeted for extermination - the Germans/Japanese/Croats treated them like inferior races, and killed them purposefully or by using them as slave labour, but there was no enunciated goal/policy of exterminating those races. The Jews and the Tutsis are alone I think in history as being victims of a planned extermination. The only other example I can even think of is the Carthaginians at the hands of the Romans in the Third Punic War, and that is doubtful.

I challenge you to show me how this is any different than what I said in the last post. I think you just misread or misunderstood my post, and are too stubborn to admit your error.

[Nage Waza]

The reality is that I don't think the Holocaust is more or less represented than it should be. Sure, it seems that some parts of history are less exposed in Canada, but there are other events that are just as 'important'. There are certain subjects that you know will bring people out of the woodwork, one of them is the holocaust.
Then the usual accusations come out: why aren't other atrocities so important (must be the Jews), Jews keep to themselves, Jews somehow deserve some of the backlash they get, Jews get angry if there is intermarriage, the list never ends. The people that post these things often have no clue what they are talking about and think they are giving an honest contribution in their post. It really makes me sick.
I have Jewish friends that are doctors and lawyers, but also unemployed and poor, mentally ill, criminals, married outside of the religion, married to their own sex (not legally as far as I know), rich, etc. Basically everything. The one thing I do know though is that this generation as a whole is very progressive and huge advocates for human rights. As a Jew myself, I know that many people I have worked with have me as their only Jewish friend, yet they seem to 'know' so much about Jews. I often wonder where they get their information from. I hear many of the assumptions I read about in this thread from them as well, but the most common one is they feel that if someone is Jewish that means they are religious. This is completely wrong and often the hardest thing I try to explain. Most people don't get it.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The reality is that I don't think the Holocaust is more or less represented than it should be. Sure, it seems that some parts of history are less exposed in Canada, but there are other events that are just as 'important'. There are certain subjects that you know will bring people out of the woodwork, one of them is the holocaust.
Then the usual accusations come out: why aren't other atrocities so important (must be the Jews), Jews keep to themselves, Jews somehow deserve some of the backlash they get, Jews get angry if there is intermarriage, the list never ends. The people that post these things often have no clue what they are talking about and think they are giving an honest contribution in their post. It really makes me sick.
I have Jewish friends that are doctors and lawyers, but also unemployed and poor, mentally ill, criminals, married outside of the religion, married to their own sex (not legally as far as I know), rich, etc. Basically everything. The one thing I do know though is that this generation as a whole is very progressive and huge advocates for human rights. As a Jew myself, I know that many people I have worked with have me as their only Jewish friend, yet they seem to 'know' so much about Jews. I often wonder where they get their information from. I hear many of the assumptions I read about in this thread from them as well, but the most common one is they feel that if someone is Jewish that means they are religious. This is completely wrong and often the hardest thing I try to explain. Most people don't get it.

Oh, I'm sure I'll get lambasted for this, but I'm gonna say it anyway...

The thing that people get tired of is when people take things so personally and act like their ethnicity is the only one that has ever suffered. The direction of this thread is this: other races suffered just as bad, if not more, than Jews. So why is it that as far as most people know, the Jews were the only ones slaughtered and murdered during WWII?

You're mistaking an attempt to bring light to other atrocities as an attempt to downplay the atrocities inflicted upon your people. That's not the case. All that's being said here is that Jews weren't the only ones killed. So why do history books read that way?

Just stop being so insulted and open your eyes to the fact that while your brethren may have come closest to extinction, other races were treated just as inhumanely. It's not an insult, it's a fact.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Oh, I'm sure I'll get lambasted for this, but I'm gonna say it anyway...

The thing that people get tired of is when people take things so personally and act like their ethnicity is the only one that has ever suffered. The direction of this thread is this: other races suffered just as bad, if not more, than Jews. So why is it that as far as most people know, the Jews were the only ones slaughtered and murdered during WWII?

You're mistaking an attempt to bring light to other atrocities as an attempt to downplay the atrocities inflicted upon your people. That's not the case. All that's being said here is that Jews weren't the only ones killed. So why do history books read that way?

Just stop being so insulted and open your eyes to the fact that while your brethren may have come closest to extinction, other races were treated just as inhumanely. It's not an insult, it's a fact.

This. This is exactly what this thread is about, unfortunately there are a few people who can't seem to get past some sort of personal complex to see that. It's been stated throughout this thread by a number of people, yet apparently it's still flying over some heads.

[Table 5]

Don't bother trying to convince Nage Wage. He's ignored this point for 9 pages now. In his world trying to shed light on the plight of others during the Holocaust means everyone has some sinister agenda against all Jews.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by fotze

Probably the same phenomena that lets the italians get a free pass in history books

That's because they talk in that funny "Luigi bringa you da pizza, whya you kids a makin the fun" voice. We're too busy chuckling at their folksiness to listen to the words.

Also they gave us Sophia Lauren and Giada De Laurentiis. Seems like a fair tradeoff.

[Nage Waza]

4X4, the real issue is that if you bring up the holocaust, people come out of nowhere to complain about it. It is usually the same things every time: Why does it get all the attention (it doesn't), the Jews keep to their own (they don't), the Jews are different than us (they aren't), you can't mention anything about Jews without getting attacked (this is not true). There are so many more than this, including in this thread pure hate talk. A recent thread about Israel included more hate speak.
If you looked up a similar thread on some other site, you will see the exact same situation.
One of the tactics used by hate groups (not that I am suggesting this is what people are doing here) is to diminish the holocaust by claims that Jews push it in your face and other world events are worse yet we don't know about them because of Jews (along with holocaust denial).

So what appears to you as some people simply mentioning that other races have suffered (of course), I suggest they get of their couch and go build a museum or something if they feel so strongly. Don't blame the Jews for it.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Don't bother trying to convince Nage Wage. He's ignored this point for 9 pages now. In his world trying to shed light on the plight of others during the Holocaust means everyone has some sinister agenda against all Jews.

But do it in the proper context, the Roma and the Jews suffered far more than any other ethnic group.

[Bigtime]

This thread used to be cool...

What happened?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by peter12

But do it in the proper context, the Roma and the Jews suffered far more than any other ethnic group.

Once again, I don't think anyone here has downplayed any sort of suffering. In fact, we are trying to up-play it.

Btw, I might think a few black folks might wish to be added to your list.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Once again, I don't think anyone here has downplayed any sort of suffering. In fact, we are trying to up-play it.

Btw, I might think a few black folks might wish to be added to your list.

Talking about the Holocaust. If we want to talk about universal human suffering, than I think we can safely disregard ethnicity or religion.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by peter12

Talking about the Holocaust. If we want to talk about universal human suffering, than I think we can safely disregard ethnicity or religion.

Fair enough.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Why does it get all the attention (it doesn't)

Not the question I asked. I asked why don't other tragedies get any attention? And I was not implying it was because of the Jews. I believe the Holocaust deserves the attention it gets I just wish for instance in the early 90's people in the US/Canada knew what was happening in Sudan.

the Jews keep to their own (they don't)

I don't feel this way.

the Jews are different than us (they aren't)

you can't mention anything about Jews without getting attacked (this is not true).

This is not true but your reaction to the intial post was unwarranted, but I think you misunderstood what the poster was saying.

There are so many more than this, including in this thread pure hate talk. A recent thread about Israel included more hate speak.
If you looked up a similar thread on some other site, you will see the exact same situation.

I haven't seen any outright hate speak here, definitely some ignorance though which could be just as bad.

One of the tactics used by hate groups (not that I am suggesting this is what people are doing here) is to diminish the holocaust by claims that Jews push it in your face and other world events are worse yet we don't know about them because of Jews (along with holocaust denial).

I don't think anyone here is blaming the lack of recognition of other tragedies on the Jews. I know I am not. I am blaming it on racism/culturalism/anglocentrism.

So what appears to you as some people simply mentioning that other races have suffered (of course), I suggest they get of their couch and go build a museum or something if they feel so strongly. Don't blame the Jews for it.

Who is blaming the Jews? Have you built a museum to the Holocaust? It's probably easier said than done. And to get funding for a project dedicated to the Sudanese genocide for instance is not easy in a country where no one gives a damn. That's my point. Are the Jews to blame for there not being a museum? Hell no. It's because the West as a whole doesn't give a crap about black people dying in Africa and that's a damn shame. No where in any of my posts did I blame the Jews for anything or say anything negative about the Jews in any way. If you think I did please point it out for me.

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by fotze

Probably the same phenomena that lets the italians get a free pass in history books

Not just Italians. Anti-semitism was rife all over Europe prior to WWII including France and Britain.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by 4X4

The thing that people get tired of is when people take things so personally and act like their ethnicity is the only one that has ever suffered. The direction of this thread is this: other races suffered just as bad, if not more, than Jews. So why is it that as far as most people know, the Jews were the only ones slaughtered and murdered during WWII?

See, that's just plain wrong -that's all. Jews were the only people targeted for extermination. Many others suffered terribly (including my own Russians), but the Jews were the only ones designated for wholesale extermination by Hitler. You might try reading Richard Evans' Third Reich trilogy if you want something fairly recent - of course it's very long. BTW I'm not arguing this point because I'm emotionally invested either way - I just want to make sure people have their facts straight. I love history - I was going to be a history professor until I decided I needed a real career. WW2 and events leading up to it was/is my area of expertise.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I reiterate my position that you can't or won't read. Here is my initial post in this thread on the subject:

That would also be because, until Rwanda, the Holocaust was the only instance of someone specifically targetting a racial group for extermination. The Gypsies, Poles, Russians, Chinese, Serbs, etc all suffered enormous losses, but were not specifically targeted for extermination - the Germans/Japanese/Croats treated them like inferior races, and killed them purposefully or by using them as slave labour, but there was no enunciated goal/policy of exterminating those races. The Jews and the Tutsis are alone I think in history as being victims of a planned extermination. The only other example I can even think of is the Carthaginians at the hands of the Romans in the Third Punic War, and that is doubtful.

I challenge you to show me how this is any different than what I said in the last post. I think you just misread or misunderstood my post, and are too stubborn to admit your error.

In the case of the Chinese and Serbs, they were both active participants in the war as well... both declaring war and occupying land that wasn't theirs. Both were victims but also aggressors and that is a big reason why they aren't memorialized they way the Jews are - who did not decare war or militarily occupy land.

I don't want to downplay the acts of the Croatian and Bosniak Nazis because I know they were terrible and disgraced Croatia, but the Serb dominated Chetnik armies committed numerous atrocities as well - many of which go unmentioned to this day. The Chinese were also bullying their neighbours before the Japanese invasion.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

In the case of the Chinese and Serbs, they were both active participants in the war as well... both declaring war and occupying land that wasn't theirs. Both were victims but also aggressors and that is a big reason why they aren't memorialized they way the Jews are - who did not decare war or militarily occupy land.

I don't want to downplay the acts of the Croatian and Bosniak Nazis because I know they were terrible and disgraced Croatia, but the Serb dominated Chetnik armies committed numerous atrocities as well - many of which go unmentioned to this day. The Chinese were also bullying their neighbours before the Japanese invasion.

Yeah, the Balkans are a cesspit of hatred. But the Serbs were opposed to Hitler and the Croats sided with him, so the Serbs got it. I'm not sure that the Chinese were bullying anyone, considering they were basically surrounded by USSR, Japan, and British possessions prior to WW 2.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

This thread used to be cool...

What happened?

It grew up.

And maybe you should too.