Alberta's $8,000,000,000.00 Deficit

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Apparently, the fund has taken a big hit due to investment losses.

Wha?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the federal equalization program. Alberta will pay less, and everyone will get less.

As the fund tops up have-not provinces to a weighted average of income raising ability based of all 10 provinces.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

Wha?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the federal equalization program. Alberta will pay less, and everyone will get less.

As the fund tops up have-not provinces to a weighted average of income raising ability based of all 10 provinces.

Sorry, I had "Heritage Fund" on the brain.

[CrusaderPi]

I was thinking Federal Equalization Fund, not Heritage Fund. But, I would like to ask 1999 to 2005 why the hell the Heritage Fund isn't a hundred times bigger.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by yads

Right, because people wait until they have enough money saved up to purchase a house, go to university, buy a car, etc. People go into debt all of time. It's not inherently bad to go into debt, you just have to do so prudently.

I thought that it was obvious that I was driving at that point, but maybe some of us need green text after all.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

I was thinking Federal Equalization Fund, not Heritage Fund. But, I would like to ask 1999 to 2005 why the hell the Heritage Fund isn't a hundred times bigger.

Because the government of the Province has zero fiscal responsibility, and is mandated by a population which, in general, shares a similar attitude on fiscal matters.

[yads]

Originally Posted by MJM

All it takes is a one year of a recession in this Province and it almost reverts to a third world country.

Let's not get over-dramatic here.

[yads]

Originally Posted by Slava

I thought that it was obvious that I was driving at that point, but maybe some of us need green text after all.

You sure have a roundabout way of driving at this point given that you replied to a comment about the government going into debt by saying

The government should never, ever be in debt.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by MJM

The truth about Alberta's economy is that it's probably the worse off of any region with similar mineral properties of any developped country in the world. Years and years, and years of prosperity and absolutely NOTHING to show for it other than inflated housing prices and inflated wages.

I always get a kick of the hardcore Albertans here banging their prosperity drum. All it takes is a one year of a recession in this Province and it almost reverts to a third world country. You'd think that given the commodity driven economy that Alberta would be prepared in the fluctuation of oil/gas prices. Hell no! Spend, spend, spend, and than there is the gimmie, gimmie, gimmie of the people (you know, the as an Albertan i'm entitled to make 70K a year and have the biggest truck in the lot even though I have no education or seviceable skills ). There's no happy medium here. Why not level things out instead of continously shifting from end of the economic spectrum to the other?

I love this Province, love the City of Calgary, but i'm getting closer and closer to punching my ticket out. I'd rather be a little worse off in another Province with a lot more security in my job/social service, than live here and live like a Rock Star for 5 years and than spend the next 5 constantly worrying if I'm going to have a job or have to take cut backs because no one within in the government or the population in general is willing to reign things in when the going is good.

Doesn't really look like there is much job security anywhere,
as for the entitled part i somewhat agree but really the majority of them probably aren't from alberta so i think it's just human nature not an albertan phenomenom.. if companies are willing to pay why not take the 70,000/year even if you are not qualified,...

[MJM]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

Doesn't really look like there is much job security anywhere,
as for the entitled part i somewhat agree but really the majority of them probably aren't from alberta so i think it's just human nature not an albertan phenomenom.. if companies are willing to pay why not take the 70,000/year even if you are not qualified,...

In my line of work, there's job security everywhere (even Ontario). In fact, we generally do better in bad times to insolvencies, people wanting to reorganzing and restructure to save costs, etc.

That is, everywhere but Alberta. In good times, money is thrown around here like it grows on trees. And in fairness to the companies, it has to be because if they don't their good employeed will simply tell them to F-off and go get another job (that entitlement I am talking about). The money is thrown around so much so, that when you hit a rough patch, that the slightess fluctuation creates chaos, and immediately layoffs are required because there's no war chest to weather the storm. The storm could be easily be weathered, and in fact, the company could come out better than before at the end of the recession, but they simply don't have the resources to weather that period of turbulance.

Same could be said for our government. Years of massive surplus, and we don't have the resources to weather a one year deficit and are already talking cutbacks!. They should be able to pay off ten years of deficit after our last run, but they have nothing.

It seems to be a never ending cycle here in Alberta. A cycle i'm having a hard time taking now.

I think you are right though, the amount of outside workers in Alberta plays a direct factor in this cycle. There's so many people in this Province just hear to rape it of all it's resources and finances because they have no intentions of staying for the long term that this vicious cycle is likely to never change.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by MJM

In my line of work, there's job security everywhere (even Ontario). In fact, we generally do better in bad times to insolvencies, people wanting to reorganzing and restructure to save costs, etc.

That is, everywhere but Alberta. In good times, money is thrown around here like it grows on trees. And in fairness to the companies, it has to be because if they don't their good employeed will simply tell them to F-off and go get another job (that entitlement I am talking about). The money is thrown around so much so, that when you hit a rough patch, that the slightess fluctuation creates chaos, and immediately layoffs are required because there's no war chest to weather the storm. The storm could be easily be weathered, and in fact, the company could come out better than before at the end of the recession, but they simply don't have the resources to weather that period of turbulance.

Same could be said for our government. Years of massive surplus, and we don't have the resources to weather a one year deficit and are already talking cutbacks!. They should be able to pay off ten years of deficit after our last run, but they have nothing.

It seems to be a never ending cycle here in Alberta. A cycle i'm having a hard time taking now.

I think you are right though, the amount of outside workers in Alberta plays a direct factor in this cycle. There's so many people in this Province just hear to rape it of all it's resources and finances because they have no intentions of staying for the long term that this vicious cycle is likely to never change.

Alot of those layoffs on the most part get rid of the idiots that shouldn't be working there in the first place anyways i think..unfortunately i think it will always be that vicious circle cause most companies when given a chance when its slow will take advantage of the situation just as much as people do when its busy..
I think alot of companies are milking this recession thing more then they are letting on...

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by MJM

The truth about Alberta's economy is that it's probably the worse off of any region with similar mineral properties of any developped country in the world. Years and years, and years of prosperity and absolutely NOTHING to show for it other than inflated housing prices and inflated wages.

I always get a kick of the hardcore Albertans here banging their prosperity drum. All it takes is a one year of a recession in this Province and it almost reverts to a third world country. You'd think that given the commodity driven economy that Alberta would be prepared in the fluctuation of oil/gas prices. Hell no! Spend, spend, spend, and than there is the gimmie, gimmie, gimmie of the people (you know, the as an Albertan i'm entitled to make 70K a year and have the biggest truck in the lot even though I have no education or seviceable skills ). There's no happy medium here. Why not level things out instead of continously shifting from end of the economic spectrum to the other?

I love this Province, love the City of Calgary, but i'm getting closer and closer to punching my ticket out. I'd rather be a little worse off in another Province with a lot more security in my job/social service, than live here and live like a Rock Star for 5 years and than spend the next 5 constantly worrying if I'm going to have a job or have to take cut backs because no one within in the government or the population in general is willing to reign things in when the going is good.

What does Government spending/saving/etc have to do with public companies and their wage philosophies?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by yads

You sure have a roundabout way of driving at this point given that you replied to a comment about the government going into debt by saying

Right, but at the same time I mentioned that I'm sure that everyone here pays cash for everything and never goes into debt either. I guess I sort of assumed that the tone of that comment was enough to imply that my entire comment was a little bit sarcastic?

In case that came across wrong, I don't for a second think that no one here takes out mortgages, finances vehicle purchases or carries a balance on a line of credit. I also don't advise people that they should try to save up to buy a house in cash in case you thought that was my point here.

[Bunk]

Instead of implementing only deep cuts to try and lower defecit, what would be the real harm of say putting in a 2% provincial sales tax. It would only bring back the overall sales tax to what it was a mere 2 years ago - there's not really any risk in stiffling consumer spending, the province would have still at least about a 4-5% competitive advantage vs all other provinces. Basically it would be like taking back a couple billion dollars from Ottawa each year. Although Ed Stelmach saying no new taxes no matter what. Is that too stubborn a stance? Might a new tax be a a benefit in the long term?

[Bertuzzied]

Didn't Klein pass a law making it illegal for Alberta to run a deficit??

[SebC]

The problem is not that we're in deficit, the problem is how and why we're in deficit. Klein cut too deep to balance the budget before the boom, creating an infrastructure deficit. The budget stayed balanced during the boom, but we had to make up the infrastructure deficit at a time when costs were skyrocketting. Ed came in, boosted spending even more (just because, apparently) and went after the golden goose (leave royalties alone!) right before the crash. If we had run a deficit in the early Klein years we could have built up a bigger savings fund during the boom. Had Stelmach not messed up the royalties and frittered money away we could justifiably spend that money today on high-value infrastructure to stimulate the economy. Had that been the case, I'd have no problem with an $8B deficit. Instead we're in a situation where we could see infrastructure cuts concurrent with a deficit. That's a sign of a government mismanagement, along with a brutal global economy.

[BlackArcher101]

Hmmm, I wonder if a global recession had anything to do with it.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Hmmm, I wonder if a global recession had anything to do with it.

Obvious the recession is playing a part, but the point is here that after years and years and years of ridiculous surpluses a Province such as Alberta should be able to weather the storm, not have to rack up 8 billion in deficit. The Province is fiscally incompetent.

[yads]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Didn't Klein pass a law making it illegal for Alberta to run a deficit??

He did, which means they either need to make cuts, raise taxes, or draw money from the Heritage fund to balance the books.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

liberals, small l, not Liberals, capital L. It was not a partisan party comment.

People lost sight of the concept of fiscal conservatism, and it bit us in the ass.

Conservatives are the ones that practically invented the idea of deficit spending as part of modern conservatism (see Reagan and Mulroney).

It's counter intuitive and somewhat ironic, but "liberal" and "conservative" don't really correspond to their literal and historical meanings any more - at least not in North America.

They both spend like crazy... they just spend on different things.

[Old Yeller]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Health
I'm usually the unofficial CP health guy

From my end, cuts are already happening, and projects and initiatives that were termed untouchable before are facing cuts or cancellations.

Hmmm I'm in post-secondary education and we have a 0% funding increase the next 2 years... no cut backs yet but most people are nervous.