Tell me there's nothing wrong with America

[mikey_the_redneck]

Shnabdabber brings up an interesting point about gun registry/controls that started in Germany. I fear that a registry can lead to confiscation one day.....

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I guess i am delusional then...what the hell else are they for?

Even if your target is another person...its still a target. That's why they are built, to hit what you are aiming for.

Wow ... is that really how you're going to counter what he said?

He meant target range shooting and you know it.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

Wow ... is that really how you're going to counter what he said?

He meant target range shooting and you know it.

Exactly...and yes that is what most guns are used for. That's my whole point. Did you even read the rest?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Exactly...and yes that is what most guns are used for. That's my whole point. Did you even read the rest?

"Used for" and "designed for" are not the same thing. Did you even read the post you quoted?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

"Used for" and "designed for" are not the same thing.

Ummm....guns are designed for AND used for hitting targets. No matter what that target may be. In the VAST majority of cases that target is an animal or a piece of paper hanging in a shooting range.

What part of this are you disagreeing with?

If you want me to admit that all guns are designed specifically for killing people, I refuse to because that is not the case. Some are for sure and they are a very effective way of doing so, no question. Again though, that decision is up to the person using the gun, not the gun itself.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Ummm....guns are designed for AND used for hitting targets. No matter what that target may be. In the VAST majority of cases that target is an animal or a piece of paper hanging in a shooting range.

What part of this are you disagreeing with?

If you want me to admit that all guns are designed specifically for killing people, I refuse to because that is not the case. Some are for sure and they are a very effective way of doing so, no question. Again though, that decision is up to the person using the gun, not the gun itself.

What I'm disagreeing with is your lumping of a paper target in with a human being.

Guns are designed to kill. You kill by hitting the target. Hitting the target is a requirement to fulfill it's design intent. If it was designed to hit a target, it wouldn't need to be lethal.

Obviously it takes a person with intent to shoot, but easier access to a gun makes the likelihood of one being used TO KILL much greater.

Unfortunately this is a philosophical argument, much like political issues. No side can convince the other, so threads end up like this one.

Some things just can't be debated to a conclusion.

[transplant99]

What I'm disagreeing with is your lumping of a paper target in with a human being.

Huh? I am not "lumpimg" them together other than to say that what any person chooses to aim their gun at...makes that a target. Period.

Guns are designed to kill. You kill by hitting the target.

How does one kill a piece of paper?

Hitting the target is a requirement to fulfill it's design intent. If it was designed to hit a target, it wouldn't need to be lethal.

No kidding. Much like darts, bows and arrows, crossbows, and any other projectile designed and used by humans.

As for no "need" to be lethal...anything can be lethal. It all depends on the user and how they want use it.

Again.....and unless you disagree with me, the single thing that makes guns a problem are the way people use them. Period. No one gets hurt when guns are used responsibly and for a hobby.

Assault rifles and the like...I agree are over the top, but still will not hurt anyone unless they are pointed at by the person with them.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

How does one kill a piece of paper?


No kidding. Much like darts, bows and arrows, crossbows, and any other projectile designed and used by humans.

As for no "need" to be lethal...anything can be lethal. It all depends on the user and how they want use it.

Again you replace paper for a human. You can't kill a piece of paper, but you can kill a person by using a gun, designed for lethality, and shooting them with it.

Darts can be lethal, but they're not designed to kill. A rock can be lethal, and so can a car, and when people bring up other things that CAN kill in a gun argument, it's pretty pathetic.

But like I said, this is a debate where no side will change their opinions. It's doubly hard when someone is stubbornly insistent that paper target shooting is the designed intent of things like handguns.

[transplant99]

Oi vay.

I KNOW people that have guns and their entire intent when getting those guns was to target shoot. Are they liars? The intent of the design is to strike targets with precision. Period. End of story. WHAT that target is relies entirely on the person using the gun.

Also...why did you not comment on Bow and Arrows and crossbows? Are they not designed to kill? Or are they designed for precision target shooting....no matter what that target might be?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oi vay.

I KNOW people that have guns and their entire intent when getting those guns was to target shoot. Are they liars? The intent of the design is to strike targets with precision. Period. End of story. WHAT that target is relies entirely on the person using the gun.

Also...why did you not comment on Bow and Arrows and crossbows? Are they not designed to kill? Or are they designed for precision target shooting....no matter what that target might be?

Bows and Crossbows are designed to kill too, which is why I don't think people should be allowed to roll down the street packing a crossbow or a bow.

And I find it awesome that you know people that only target shoot. Again, if they were designed only for precision, they wouldn't be lethal. Period. End of story.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Azure

Remind me why I give a crap what you think about guns. Is there a problem with going to the range for a few hours once a week and having fun?

I can't possibly be less than what I care about your thoughts.

Originally Posted by flip

Instead the US presidential system has evolved into one of the most stable political systems in the world. Quite shocking really because most presidential systems have failed, especially in SA.

I assume you mean South America here? If so, the presidential system never failed, it's alive and well. The problem here is that the Spanish and Portuguese raped South America for resources badly and those centuries of abuse created high tension and brutal corruption that still exists to this very day. The Euros were much more abusive and piliged their resources much more than they ever did in North America. To them south America was an open pit mine.

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I don't understand why Canadians are so passionate or opinionated about this. Is it just to find fault in the US to make Canada appear to be a superior country? Regardless of which side of the fence you're on with guns, why discuss it so passionately? What about discussing Canadian gun laws?

We would be discussing gun laws if gun murders were a serious problem in Canada. Like murder rates, gun crime rates per capita in the US are double what they are in Canada, despite the fact that per capita we have close to the same amount of guns.

And don't call Canadians judgemental when the US is far worse. Despite many countries in Scandanavia that do well with socialism and, like Canada, have had a higher standard of living than the US for years, the United States labels these countries and looks down on them as socialists. Why do you care if socialism exists? Why is socialism a bad word in the US? Why do you care so much that they are?

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

An accident can happen at any time. Do you drive? Because cars can kill too..............and accidents happen so maybe we should ban cars too.

Wow, how late you were up writting that gem?

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh, so you can't admit that what the majority of civilians use guns for, target shooting and hunting....is not intended to cause harm to other people.

This is exactly why these gun threads go the same router every single damn time. People, probably those that have never owned a gun in their lives just love to bitch and complain about how dangerous guns are without admitting to the fact that alcohol kills more people every year than guns do. Or that more people die every year from obesity.

So, what is more dangerous? Guns, or alcohol/unhealthy foods? The evidence is quite clear.

I would love banning unhealthy foods. Get rid of McDonalds, BK, Wendy's and all the other crap US fast food chains and the world would be a better place. And if you do remember, prohibition existed a century ago. It has been tried.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I'm sure I could get away with a similar post rattling off all of the stereotypical Canadian beahviors/traits (largely untrue) and nobody here would be offended?

There are some posters here who have some serious anti-American sentiment that resonates beyond disliking policy and government. I find it disturbing and sad.

There are fat people in Canada who don't have a clue where Ohio is.

Right, there also obese people in the US that have no clue where Ohio is, so what's your point? Go ahead and rip on Canada as long as you have well thoughtout, logic opinions rooted in some kind of coherent knowledge on the topic at hand. I don't know what you would rip though, cold weather? A lack of Victoria Secret stores? Hockey? Our beer? Blackberry and Cirque du Soleil? Igloos? My pet cariboo and polar bear? Go nuts.

Originally Posted by Sowa

Your BS stereotypical post about the US would be more offensive if your knowledge of the American culture didn't include thinking that Springsteen goes along with the rest of that stuff. Way to go...

So I guess "Born in the USA" is a song with no iconism and was not an anthem for the country 25 years ago? I couldn't even name another Springsteen song but I know that one. I suppose because the Beatles are old too means to you they are musically irrelevant. Go listen to Lady Gaga already and get lost!

[transplant99]

Again, if they were designed only for precision,they wouldn't be lethal. Period. End of story

How so?

They are bullets designed to fly anywhere from 100' to hundreds of yards away...and strike a specific spot. They have olympic sports that use them in such a capacity,, and im sure if they were used on people they would be lethal even though that is not their designed intent.

im really not sure what you are getting at here....unless you mean that the ammunition could be changed to allow such precision without causing harm. In which case i dont think you could find anything that would fly as straight that wouldnt have lethal force behind it.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

We would be discussing gun laws if gun murders were a serious problem in Canada. Like murder rates, gun crime rates per capita in the US are double what they are in Canada, despite the fact that per capita we have close to the same amount of guns.

And don't call Canadians judgemental when the US is far worse. Despite many countries in Scandanavia that do well with socialism and, like Canada, have had a higher standard of living than the US for years, the United States labels these countries and looks down on them as socialists. Why do you care if socialism exists? Why is socialism a bad word in the US? Why do you care so much that they are?

For the record, I'm Canadian residing in the US.

Canadians are judgmental. For some reason, Canadians like to point out as many flaws in the US and discuss them as though in doing so, it makes Canada better. Not to say that other countries aren't equally judgmental (including the US), but Canadians, for whatever reason, love to differentiate themselves from the US and almost define themselves based on these differences. Only my perception though.

The next paragraph is not intended to be argumentative, rather just trying to answer your question. I don't want to and I don't think there's any reason to get into the socialist v. capitalist debate in this thread. With that caveat:

I suppose socialism is a "bad word" in the US because it is the opposite of the foundations of the US system and culture. Capitalism is the driving force behind virtually every area in the US - healthcare, industry, universities, taxes, elections, etc.... To introduce socialism is tearing down that capitalist structure. It would be like introducing completely private healthcare to Canadians or promoting something that directly detracted from beer or hockey.

I think that it was compounded by the Cold War and fears of the "Red Soviets" taking over the world and all the propaganda that went along with it. There is obviously residual effects of that still in the population that grew up during the Cold War and the generation or two immediately following.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

For the record, I'm Canadian residing in the US.

Canadians are judgmental. For some reason, Canadians like to point out as many flaws in the US and discuss them as though in doing so, it makes Canada better. Not to say that other countries aren't equally judgmental (including the US), but Canadians, for whatever reason, love to differentiate themselves from the US and almost define themselves based on these differences. Only my perception though.

The next paragraph is not intended to be argumentative, rather just trying to answer your question. I don't want to and I don't think there's any reason to get into the socialist v. capitalist debate in this thread. With that caveat:

I suppose socialism is a "bad word" in the US because it is the opposite of the foundations of the US system and culture. Capitalism is the driving force behind virtually every area in the US - healthcare, industry, universities, taxes, elections, etc.... To introduce socialism is tearing down that capitalist structure. It would be like introducing completely private healthcare to Canadians or promoting something that directly detracted from beer or hockey.

I think that it was compounded by the Cold War and fears of the "Red Soviets" taking over the world and all the propaganda that went along with it. There is obviously residual effects of that still in the population that grew up during the Cold War and the generation or two immediately following.

If you are a Canadian residing in the US and Canadians are judgemental, doesn't that make you judgemental? I'm half joking and serious.

I think a lot of it has to do with the US influence. You bombard our market with everything you have so sometimes we have to fight to retain our independence. In fact, we put up with countless US invasions in the history of confederacy. For centuries US decision makers thought that it was only a matter of time until manifest destiny occured and Canada would be swallowed by the US. Nutjobs like Pat Buchannon and Tucker Carlson still think so.

A lot of it has to with the sheer ignorance the US has of Canada. I was once asked in Seattle by a US citizen if we had the internet in Canada. Seattle! The huge city which only a few hundred kilometres from Vancouver. They rip our more effective health care system, taxation but have no idea Canada's population is made up of 16% VISIBLE minorities. People in the US seem to think we are all white. Most people don't know our capital and many think we live in ingloos. Few people in the US realize we have a better standard of living and quality of life, better health care, great economy and iconic global companies like Cirque du Soleil and RIM. Many people in the US have a Blackberry or have been to one of their shows but I would wager most have no idea they are from Canada.

A lot of it is also sheer ignorance of the world outside the US. Politically and economically virtually every country on earth has a reason to hate the US, just like most did Britain a few centuries ago. I always laugh when abroad a US citizen introduce themselves by telling you what state they are from rather than country. I bet most don't even know where the name America came from.

And frankly, every country makes fun of someone. The US makes fun of Mexico, the Swiss of the German, the Aussies of the Kiwis, Chileans of Argentina, England and France, etc. The US is just our target, most likely because you are our only neighbour.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

If you are a Canadian residing in the US and Canadians are judgemental, doesn't that make you judgemental? I'm half joking and serious.

I think a lot of it has to do with the US influence. You bombard our market with everything you have so sometimes we have to fight to retain our independence.

I definitely was judgmental of the US before I moved down here.

I agree that many Americans are ignorant about Canada, Mexico and their own country. Many Canadians are ignorant about the US, Mexico and their own country. I just think Canadians parade the US's ignorance in order to celebrate themselves more.

I still don't see why so many Canadians are so opinionated about strictly US issues - gun control, healthcare, etc... Why? It does not effect the average Canadian at all, yet, it's more of an opinion piece than Canadian gun laws or healthcare.

I know you mentioned murder rates being doubled in the US compared to Canada, and even if that statistic is true, who cares? Why not debate more relaxed or tight gun laws in Canada? The Canadian gov't spent millions on a gun registery that doesn't work. Why isn't that a topic? What about restrictions on handguns in Canada? I'm not saying that this (US gun issues) is not a topic to be debated, but why is it more interesting to you, a Canadian who resides in Canada, than similar topics in your own country that effect you? And even if you do have an opinion on the US gun laws, why bring up Canada (not you specifically, Cactus, but posters in general)?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

"Effectively, there is already a ban on handguns in Canada. They are already extremely tightly controlled and are only available to those requiring them for employment purposes (such as police and armoured car guards), legitimate target shooters, and approved collectors," said a spokesperson for Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day.
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/239072
I guess the Minister for Public works does not know the gun laws either, how sad.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The actual law states that with a restricted license, and a valid membership to a shooting range, you can own all the handguns you want.

What the hell do you think 'legitimate target shooters' means? 99% of handgun owners are target shooters. Geez.

[RubberDuck]

Number of killing machines owned = 1

Number of rounds fired through it = 1000+

Number of humans or animals killed with the killing machine = 0

Number of humans or animals I plan to kill with the killing machine = 0

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

For the record, I'm Canadian residing in the US.

Canadians are judgmental. For some reason, Canadians like to point out as many flaws in the US and discuss them as though in doing so, it makes Canada better. Not to say that other countries aren't equally judgmental (including the US), but Canadians, for whatever reason, love to differentiate themselves from the US and almost define themselves based on these differences. Only my perception though.

Canadians are judgemental? There's a generalization if I've ever seen one.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Canadians are judgemental? There's a generalization if I've ever seen one.

And you wonder why lawyers are so wordy.

In the interest of keeping my posts under 3,000 words to qualify every single point to the exact scope of people, situations, topics, statements discussed, I have taken certain liberties with the language.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Azure

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The actual law states that with a restricted license, and a valid membership to a shooting range, you can own all the handguns you want.

What the hell do you think 'legitimate target shooters' means? 99% of handgun owners are target shooters. Geez.

You should have said "Again, you and the former Minister of Public Safety have no idea what you're talking about"

My apologies, I should have said that "handguns are effectively banned in Canada with the exception of collectors and those with registered licenses".

You said that if you had a registered license, you can have all the handguns you want, that is not quite correct, you have to have a registration certificate for each individual handgun. It is quite sad when people are on here talking about gun laws and do not even know what the hell they are talking about, you make it sound like you get the license and you can acquire as many handguns as you want. That is clearly not the case, Geez.