Pierre Elliott Trudeau: a man who was ahead of his time

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Of course it's not popular to say ANYTHING positive about Trudeau here in Alberta, but no single person made a more significant contribution to defeating the separatists in the 1980 referendum than he did. So while you can claim that he divided the country -- and from an Albertan's perspective, he certainly did that -- he also unified it. There might not even be a Canada as we know it now if not for him.

This speech, given just a few days before the referendum, will long be remembered as one of the high points in Canadian political discourse:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/p...h4-4083-e.html

But nevermind that -- let's bitch about the NEP some more.

At the end of the day, he gave the province of Quebec its sense of entitlement, the sovereignty question was never solved, and to an extent was accelerated thanks to Trudeau.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by troutman

And he slept with Liona Boyd.

My respect has increased slightly

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Of course it's not popular to say ANYTHING positive about Trudeau here in Alberta, but no single person made a more significant contribution to defeating the separatists in the 1980 referendum than he did. So while you can claim that he divided the country -- and from an Albertan's perspective, he certainly did that -- he also unified it. There might not even be a Canada as we know it now if not for him.

This speech, given just a few days before the referendum, will long be remembered as one of the high points in Canadian political discourse:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/p...h4-4083-e.html

But nevermind that -- let's bitch about the NEP some more.

I'll play the devil's advocate - What would this country be like without Quebec? Would it really be all that bad?

[The Goon]

For crying out loud, at least fix the thread title.

Originally Posted by troutman

And he slept with Liona Boyd.

True story - my best friend now lives in the house where Pierre and Liona had their clandestine meetings.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by 4X4

You're the first one to bring it up.

I was (correctly) predicting where this thread would go. Dion's post came only a minute after mine, so obviously we were both typing at the same time.

[mykalberta]

I must be missing something. Why is this its own thread and not a Random Thoughts post?

Do we really want Off Topic filled with Topics about someones opinion for no specific reason, date, or with no source cited as to make this news worthy? I thought thats what the Random Thoughts thread is for?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At the end of the day, he gave the province of Quebec its sense of entitlement, the sovereignty question was never solved, and to an extent was accelerated thanks to Trudeau.

Indeed. Trudeau never solved anything related to the question of Quebec. He certainly played a key role in winning the battle in 1980, but the war continues largely because of his actions as well. And that is on top of exacerbating the east-west divide. Especially with his battles with Lougheed and attempts to strip power from the provinces to wrap about himself.

And since MarchHare brought up the NEP, how many people lost their life savings, jobs and homes so he could buy votes in Ontario? How many people who lost everything committed suicide - deaths that can be laid right at his feet?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I was (correctly) predicting where this thread would go. Dion's post came only a minute after mine, so obviously we were both typing at the same time.

Don't strain your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Any ###### could guess that the NEP was going to be brought up eventually.

[transplant99]

Wrong guy at the wrong time with the wrong policies and a sense of entitlement yet to be matched by a Canadian PM.

Dude was a great politician but a horrible PM.

[Royal Eagle]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At the end of the day, he gave the province of Quebec its sense of entitlement, the sovereignty question was never solved, and to an extent was accelerated thanks to Trudeau.

I suppose you are referring to the October crisis of 1970 involving the FLQ and James Cross. I know Trudeau played a proeminent role in that, especially when he sent federal armed troops in Montreal and declared martial law(in which 500 separatist sympathizers were arrested without proper legal representation)

The issue of Quebec sovereignty, with or without Trudeau, was on the rise during that period. The 1960s were a time where movements of political and social upheaval were vehemently active in most Western countries, including Quebec. Canadian federalism was seen by many Quebec nationalists as a rigid structure who was unable to contain Quebec's demands of cultural, political and economic autonomy.

I doubt Trudeau accelerated the rise of Quebec nationalism, as it could not be avoided anyway, and his role in the 1970 crisis could not accelerate it further

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

I'm torn, because if Trudeau hadn't relaxed immigration laws, my parents would have never come to Canada. But upon coming to Canada, the recession that ensued the NEP forced my parents to abandon mortgages on two homes, leaving them nearly bankrupt. The a-hole that I hate to love, but love to hate.

P.S. Why the crap did a random thread on Trudeau pop up??

[Dion]

Make no mistake, putting artificial prices on Oil absolutely killed the Albertan oil industry as investment dollars flew out of Alberta to the US. Have you taken primary economics.... try putting an artificial ceiling on an international pricing model.

The goals of the NEP were thus:

(1) Remove American influence and replace it with Eastern Canadian. Maybe that is better to you, but not to most Albertans. Once again eastern Canada's grip on the oil economy is slipping as Alberta is becoming more self sufficient and attractive to American and other International investment.

(2) Ensure Eastern Canada remained economically advantaged, at the cost of destroying the only profitiable industry in Canada. No one in the west benefitted from the NEP whatsoever. The NEP was based on totally disastrous economics.

(3) Imagine for an instance that the world hadnt had an oil price correction. The Albertan economy was slowly grinding to a halt. As Ontario could no longer poach free oil from Alberta they would have had to import from the US supply, thus killing the artificial advantage sustaining Eastern manufacturing. Canadians reliant on huge social spending would find no money in the nest. Canada most likely would have been bankrupt in less than 10 years. The small 'depression' saved Canada altogether.

http://calgarygrit.blogspot.com/2005/08/nep.html

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I'll play the devil's advocate - What would this country be like without Quebec? Would it really be all that bad?

1. This country would be fine without Quebec.
2. No it would not.

[flamesfever]

I have to say that I was caught up in the Trudeaumania that took place back in the 60's. I liked him for his strong personality and the respect he commanded on the World Stage. However I believe he was far too socialistic and many of his policies were ill conceived.

I didn't agree with the formation of CESIS which took away the responsibility for national security from the RCMP.

I thought his move to change from the imperial to the metric system was done far too prematurely. I don't think we should have done it any sooner than the US.

The NEP was one of his worst blunders. I believe it was developed by a 30 some odd year old person, named Clarke, who had just written his thesis on socialism in some African country. I don't believe anyone will know the true cost of this Policy to our country. I recall 19 Billion dollars flew out of the country the first week, and billions of dollars were diverted to exploration in the Beaufort Sea. I also recall shortly after the NEP was foisted on us, the Liberals sent Clarke over to France to study nationalizing the banks.

I also think his bilingualism and insistence that French Canadians be hired preferentially has caused problems in government agencies.

[Pagal4321]

Well without Trudeau my parent's never would have come to Canada, so lord knows what my life would have been like otherwise.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Wrong guy at the wrong time with the wrong policies and a sense of entitlement yet to be matched by a Canadian PM.

Dude was a great politician but a horrible PM.

Nicely summarized.

A dominating personality/presence but polarizing in general with policies that ultimately seemed to be destructive.

He had a suitably outlandish state funeral and had a mountain named after him so someone must think highly of him!!!!

Cowperson

[MarchHare]

I thought his move to change from the imperial to the metric system was done far too prematurely. I don't think we should have done it any sooner than the US.

If depending on the US to switch first was a requirement, then we'd still be waiting on that one. America is the backwards country to continue using the Imperial system. The metric system is by far superior, and I think even Americans have come to realize this. The only reason they haven't switched yet is because of the immense cost of converting everything.

Turning a thread about Trudeau's legacy into a debate about the merits of the metric system is probably beyond the scope of this discussion, though. :P

[FlamesAddiction]

Well, the NEP was supposed to share the wealth with the rest of the country, but what it ended up doing was just bringing the same miserable conditions that existed elsewhere, to Alberta (which was living the good life before that while the rest of the country was in turmoil due to outside pressures).

It's perfectly legitimate to blame Trudeau for implementing a program that failed to do what it was supposed to and ultimately screwed over a province, but if you were living anywhere else in the country at the time, you would have likely been behind the decision. People elsewhere were already losing their homes and their livelihoods and were looking for the government to do something to stop it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

If depending on the US to switch first was a requirement, then we'd still be waiting on that one. America is the backwards country to continue using the Imperial system. The metric system is by far superior, and I think even Americans have come to realize this. The only reason they haven't switched yet is because of the immense cost of converting everything.

Turning a thread about Trudeau's legacy into a debate about the merits of the metric system is probably beyond the scope of this discussion, though. :P

Yeah, no kidding.

Even most American scientists have already switched to the metric system. The old imperial system is a fossil and makes no sense to keep using.

[troutman]

I don't think anyone mentioned the Charter yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...s_and_Freedoms

Meanwhile, Trudeau, who had become Liberal leader and prime minister in 1968, still very much wanted a constitutional bill of rights. The federal government and the provinces discussed creating one during negotiations for patriation, which resulted in the Victoria Charter in 1971. This never came to be implemented. However, Trudeau continued with his efforts to patriate the Constitution, and promised constitutional change during the 1980 Quebec referendum. He would succeed in 1982 with the passage of the Canada Act 1982. This enacted the Constitution Act, 1982.

As Canada had a parliamentary system of government, and as judges were perceived not to have enforced rights well in the past, it was questioned whether the courts should be named as the enforcers of the Charter, as Trudeau wanted. Conservatives argued that elected politicians should be trusted instead. It was eventually decided that the responsibility should go to the courts. At the urging of civil libertarians, judges could even now exclude evidence in trials if acquired in breach of Charter rights in certain circumstances, something the Charter was not originally going to provide for. As the process continued, more features were added to the Charter, including equality rights for people with disabilities, more sex equality guarantees and recognition of Canada's multiculturalism.