Thank god Canadians are civil with political debates

[troutman]

I admit I follow US politics more than Canadian politics. Far more entertaining.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by starseed

Well, my opinion that Canada is generally more tolerant is just that... an opinion. One reason I think that way is that 55-58% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage according to 2008 polls, and 66% of Canadians supported same-sex marriage according to 2005 polls.

I can see your point about the conservatives in America lashing out only to try and stop Obama's momentum. Maybe they are looking for any reasons, as crazy and ill-informed as they may be, to stand up against the shift to the left.

For Albertans you are in the minority maybe, for Canadians you are in the majority opinion.

Also, I think those polls are misleading. I doubt many people support the legislation on either side of the border, they arent against it however. I am in that camp, I dont support it but I am not against it either.

When you care about something you do whatever it takes, even if that path of action isnt the smartest long term move (because you think you can fix it later). The US should have some form of general healthcare for the lower middle class. Everyone knows that, the problem is that if you let Obama win that issue the way he proposed it in the election then he can use that to win the next election.

What they are trying to do is to turn that legislation into such an abortion that he cannot use it as a success. Then later they can go and fix it. Of course the same people that always get screwed, get shafted once again but that is life in our world.

Health care funding is always going to be a difficult issue no matter where you are. You have an industry which is vital, yet has no means of cost control whatsoever so the costs of delivery never remain stagnant or decrease but always increase.

[starseed]

I try to follow US politics, but sometimes it gets really depressing... and I cannot stand watching people yell over each other on news shows. The only time I wont turn it off is if its The Daily Show, and rarely does Jon do that on his show.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by zuluking

After watching all the politically-active groups passionately engaged in townhalls in the U.S., I realized how much more Canadians as a whole are politically ignorant and lazy. Political discussion is way more pointless and frustrating in that you don't see people politically informed or even willing to be. Whether you belong to the NDP (commie), Liberal (liar) or Conservative (hypocrite) parties, no one questions each others vision, policies or motivation; they just run BS personal attacks and media drivel about wafers and hidden tape recorders. While the U.S. is a good neighbor, I wish we could also recognize the example they set as a nation willing to express itself across the entire political spectrum.

Bullcrap. Pure bullcrap. Americans are just as if not far more politically lazy. They pick their team, stick with their team and follow only their team. The hardcore Republicans watch their FOX News and consider themselves "educated on political issues". How in the world can you have a political discussion with a people where 41% believe that Saddam Hussien was involved in 9/11? And a further 10% said they were not sure!!!

As for wafers and tape recorders, I counter with lapel buttons and hair cuts.

[mykalberta]

Where are those poll numbers from?

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by starseed

I try to follow US politics, but sometimes it gets really depressing... and I cannot stand watching people yell over each other on news shows. The only time I wont turn it off is if its The Daily Show, and rarely does Jon do that on his show.

Try watching the House of Commons and then comment.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Where are those poll numbers from?

Newsweek, circa 2007.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Bullcrap. Pure bullcrap. Americans are just as if not far more politically lazy. They pick their team, stick with their team and follow only their team. The hardcore Republicans watch their FOX News and consider themselves "educated on political issues". How in the world can you have a political discussion with a people where 41% believe that Saddam Hussien was involved in 9/11? And a further 10% said they were not sure!!!

As for wafers and tape recorders, I counter with lapel buttons and hair cuts.

Well, thanks for displaying your political stripes...not that anyone asked or it pertained to this thread.

I didn't say they were smart or non-partisan about it; I said they were passionate and engaged, in tone with the topic of the thread. It's summertime and, if you were to line up the political topics of the day between Canada and the U.S., where would you find relevant issues being discussed?

[starseed]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

For Albertans you are in the minority maybe, for Canadians you are in the majority opinion.

When you care about something you do whatever it takes, even if that path of action isnt the smartest long term move (because you think you can fix it later). The US should have some form of general healthcare for the lower middle class. Everyone knows that, the problem is that if you let Obama win that issue the way he proposed it in the election then he can use that to win the next election.

What they are trying to do is to turn that legislation into such an abortion that he cannot use it as a success. Then later they can go and fix it. Of course the same people that always get screwed, get shafted once again but that is life in our world.

Health care funding is always going to be a difficult issue no matter where you are. You have an industry which is vital, yet has no means of cost control whatsoever so the costs of delivery never remain stagnant or decrease but always increase.

Ya the Republican Chairman said as much about not letting Obama win this issue. I guess that is what it always boils down to in politics (and not just the states). Like this EI thing up here, the Conservatives said the Liberal plan would cost $4 billion, which is 4 times what the Liberals are saying. After looking at the figures, the conservatives had added in extra entrants that would not be covered in the Liberal plan. They blatantly padded the number. As in the states, there will always be Canadians who will swallow propaganda from political parties whether or not it is based on truth or lies.

Well... no one said it was a perfect political system.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by zuluking

Try watching the House of Commons and then comment.

Oh god. "Saying you behaved childishly would be an insult to children everywhere!"

Although I admit, it is entertaining on the rare occasion.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by devils'advocate

bullcrap. Pure bullcrap. Americans are just as if not far more politically lazy. They pick their team, stick with their team and follow only their team. The hardcore democrats watch their msnbc news and consider themselves "educated on political issues". How in the world can you have a political discussion with a people where majority believe that nancy pelosi should drive national policy!!!

As for wafers and tape recorders, i counter with lapel buttons and hair cuts.

fyp

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by zuluking

I didn't say they were smart or non-partisan about it; I said they were passionate and engaged, in tone with the topic of the thread. It's summertime and, if you were to line up the political topics of the day between Canada and the U.S., where would you find relevant issues being discussed?

Passionate, engaged and ill-informed is far more dangerous than "I don't want a summer election because I want to go to the beach." I just don't mistake the Canadian relaxed attitude as "lazy", which you suggested.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I dunno. I live in a very Conservative neighborhood. The fellow across the street was great... we would chat on and off and he let me borrow his lawn mower when my grass got too high to use my push mower. That all ended last election when I put the NDP sign up. Then again, I guess getting the evil eye is more civil than threats of violence.

Serves you right, supporting those communist pigs and all.

[Azure]

Also, I tend that the politicians here in Canada that always make the news aren't as mentally ######ed as the ones in the US that make the news.

But hey, nothing like sending in union members to meetings to counter health care critics. Makes for some civil political debate right there. I would be pissed off right now if I lived in the US too. Especially considering when people like Pelosi, Boxer, Reid and even Obama are quite willing to ignore or even degrade what the mainstream American wants, and force through their own version of what they think is best for the country.

I've said it many times before, but when the President and the top-dogs in Congress are in the outs with the blue-dog Democrats, something is seriously wrong.

And right now, they ARE in the outs.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by starseed

Ya the Republican Chairman said as much about not letting Obama win this issue. I guess that is what it always boils down to in politics (and not just the states). Like this EI thing up here, the Conservatives said the Liberal plan would cost $4 billion, which is 4 times what the Liberals are saying. After looking at the figures, the conservatives had added in extra entrants that would not be covered in the Liberal plan. They blatantly padded the number. As in the states, there will always be Canadians who will swallow propaganda from political parties whether or not it is based on truth or lies.

Well... no one said it was a perfect political system.

Yah, I think the Libs underestimated and the Cons over estimated.

360 Hours is a complete joke though. 9 weeks of full time work is embarrassing - should High School students be able to claim EI, College students? I am sure they are lowballing it to get a number close to 500. I am worried for both sides that an issue like this BS might actually cause an election.

[octothorp]

In the US, the vicious civil discourse begins with the prolific political punditry engines that both parties possess. Meanwhile, their politicians are relatively civil to one another. It's much easier for a populace to listen to pundits and get whipped into a fury, because they can more easily emotionally invest themselves in a Limbaugh or Olberman figure. Their politicians don't need to get into the dirty work of whipping up a populace, and can remain, for the most part, above the fray. If you're a republican voter, you don't need to respect Glenn Beck; you can dislike him but listen to what he says, and instead respect McCain.
All of this, combined with the two party system, creates a system where there's very vicious discourse at a low level and very civil discourse at a higher level, which in turn drives party membership which fuels the entire machine.

Here in Canada by contrast, we lack that punditry engine. I can't even think of the names of true shill opinionists on either side; even a left-leaning guy like Rex Murphy will tear into the Liberals whenever he can get in a good shot. More polarized voices (say, the Ezra Levants of the country) are largely ignored. Without this punditry engine, the political rhetoric rests almost entirely on the folks in the House of Commons, and when they yell at each other, it doesn't whip up any sort of power-base, it just causes us to roll our eyes or sigh in frustration. You can't respect the guy who's slinging the mud. All of this causes us to be more cynical about our politicians, which causes a bit more of an emotional detachment from the political process.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Passionate, engaged and ill-informed is far more dangerous than "I don't want a summer election because I want to go to the beach." I just don't mistake the Canadian relaxed attitude as "lazy", which you suggested.

I didn't suggest it; I stated it. "...how much more Canadians as a whole are politically ignorant and lazy."

"Ill-informed" based on your perspective. In other words, it sounds like you're saying that if they are passionate, engaged and agree with you, that's cool; otherwise, it's dangerous. I would suggest that apathy is the more precarious position. Relaxed = "I don't want a summer election because I'm not overly concerned about the current direction of government." Lazy (apathetic) = "I don't want a summer election because I want to go to the beach."

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by zuluking

"Ill-informed" based on your perspective. In other words, it sounds like you're saying that if they are passionate, engaged and agree with you, that's cool; otherwise, it's dangerous.

Putting words in peoples mouth is not a very eloquent means of debating. But if it works for you....

How is it that 4 out of 10 Americans believe Saddam was behind 9/11? That's not a partisan point. Bush and Cheney both stated that Saddam had no role in 9/11. Or are you suggesting that maybe that that 40% are correct and that I am ill-informed on the issue?

I think if you asked Canadians you would get a much different result.

[Azure]

50% of the voting Americans also thought Obama would make a good President.

So, its not like they're smart or anything.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

53% of the voting Americans also thought Obama would make a good President.

fyp.

And so far, the smart money says he is a massive improvement over his predecessor, health care boondoggles aside.

Not to mention that he was clearly the better choice. Can you imagine McCain/Palin in these circumstances? Yeesh.