High Speed Rail - Calgary/Edmonton

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Well then maybe that feasibility study is either outdated or seriously flawed.

It is not going to be cheaper than taking the Greyhound.

You are thinking of this as if its going to be profitable.

The reason it always stalls is because $50 is close to the tipping point, and yet $50 likely barely covers the cost of operation with no recoup of construction.

I thought the plan was for the Government to basically foot the initial cost of construction, then turn it over to a private operator to cover operations.

I know in the past, the Edmonton Airport was the biggest opposition to this plan because they thought people would just take the train to Calgary to fly.

For me, a stop in Red Deer makes sense, but no where else unless you had 2 trains, one going nonstop and one making milk runs which again likely makes this unfeesible.

I like the idea of building out the LRT in both cities, and when that is done then again look at the HSR. I thing you would need 5mil minimum between Edmonton/Calgary region for this to work profitably (not including construction costs). Also might as well wait for what ever enviro taxes are sure to come in the future.

In 10 year I can see a 10 cent gas tax, applicable airline fuel tax, possibly a couple of toll booths on highway 2 to cover the ever balooning health care costs etc. By itself it problably doesnt work, when you add all the likely future garbage taxes etc, maybe then it works.

[mykalberta]

The white, older, Canadian version of Barak Obama is behind it.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...7?hub=Politics

It can't fail

[Tower]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The timing isn't that simple.

Lets assume its only a Calgary to Edmonton and vice versa milk run at 1h15 each way. Bascially, that means three hour round trips for the trains, assuming you ran them constantly. So, if the train schedule is to leave Calgary at 6AM, 9AM, 12Noon, etc, and I want to leave Calgary at 7:30, I am waiting around an hour and a half for the next train, whereas I could have just driven, and arrived at the same time.

That, of course, is the big tradeoff. To drive, you just hop in and go. Taking the train would be faster, but you are a slave to their schedule.

How much you wanna bet Airdrie, Red Deer and Leduc would want stops?

Cost wise, I don't see a benefit for the average user. It's not going to be cheap. Frankly, I doubt it would be cheaper to take the train than the half tank of gas would cost. And, of course, if you are going anywhere but where the train stops, you are either renting a car or cabbing it. No savings there.

From an environmental perspective, if we are going to spend that much tax money on rail transit, spend it on building out Calgary and Edmonton's LRT systems. It would have a much bigger impact, and be much more useful to the average person in both cities.

If some private company wants to take a risk on it, go ahead. I think there are far better ways for government to spend our money.

You could have 1 track with 4 trains and have a switch/station in Red Deer and Olds and Leduc. That way times are maximized and one track is cost effective over two tracks. This can also be magnetic bullet trains that run super fast at 600km/hr and have very little wait times. Mag pole transport is cost freindly to run and can use renewable energy. Thus keeping operation costs low. Very doable.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Tower

You could have 1 track with 4 trains and have a switch/station in Red Deer and Olds and Leduc. That way times are maximized and one track is cost effective over two tracks. This can also be magnetic bullet trains that run super fast at 600km/hr and have very little wait times. Mag pole transport is cost freindly to run and can use renewable energy. Thus keeping operation costs low. Very doable.

Maglevs are ridiculously expensive and very hard to build and maintain, not to all the red tape of having a land-based rocket going down a busy corridor.

Bullet trains are one thing, but maglevs are another. If they were as you describe them to be, everyone would be using them, but they require a huge amount of investment and attention.

[Tower]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Maglevs are ridiculously expensive and very hard to build and maintain, not to all the red tape of having a land-based rocket going down a busy corridor.

Bullet trains are one thing, but maglevs are another. If they were as you describe them to be, everyone would be using them, but they require a huge amount of investment and attention.

Don't take this for gospel as some citation is needed. I for one welcome 4000mph speeds!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_train

The Shanghai maglev cost 9.93 billion yuan (US$1.2 billion) to build.[17] This total includes infrastructure capital costs such as manufacturing and construction facilities, and operational training. At 50 yuan per passenger[18] and the current 7,000 passengers per day, income from the system is incapable of recouping the capital costs (including interest on financing) over the expected lifetime of the system, even ignoring operating costs[citation needed].
China aims to limit the cost of future construction extending the maglev line to approximately 200 million yuan (US$24.6 million) per kilometer.[17]
The United States Federal Railroad Administration 2003 Draft Environmental Impact Statement for a proposed Baltimore-Washington Maglev project gives an estimated 2008 capital costs of 4.361 billion US dollars for 39.1 miles, or 111.5 million US dollars per mile (69.3 million US dollars per kilometer). The Maryland Transit Authority (MTA) conducted their own Enviromental Impact Statement, and put the pricetag at 4.9 billion dollars for construction, and 53 million a year for operations. [2]
While high-speed maglevs are expensive to build, they are less expensive to operate and maintain than traditional high-speed trains, planes or intercity buses.[citation needed] Data from the Shanghai maglev project indicates that operation and maintenance costs are covered by the current relatively low volume of 7,000 passengers per day.[citation needed] Passenger volumes on the Pudong International Airport line are expected to rise dramatically once the line is extended from Longyang Road metro station all the way to Shanghai's downtown train depot.
The proposed Chūō Shinkansen maglev in Japan is estimated to cost approximately US$82 billion to build, with a route blasting long tunnels through mountains. A Tokaido maglev route replacing current Shinkansen would cost some 1/10th the cost, as no new tunnel blasting would be needed, but noise pollution issues would make it infeasible.
The only low-speed maglev (100 km/h) currently operational, the Japanese Linimo HSST, cost approximately US$100 million/km to build.[19] Besides offering improved operation and maintenance costs over other transit systems, these low-speed maglevs provide ultra-high levels of operational reliability and introduce little noise and zero air pollution into dense urban settings.
As maglev systems are deployed around the world, experts expect construction costs to drop as new construction methods are innovated along with economies of scale.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Azure

I realize that we're already running a deficit, which I don't like, but as soon as oil/gas starts going up again, and Alberta starts turning another surplus, this should be a project we should invest in.

I'd rather pay whatever interest is required to finance stuff than wait for steel prices and labour prices to go back up. If we're going to do it, we shouldn't wait. I agree though that public transit in Calgary and Edmonton should be a higher priority. I want my downtown subway!

[jammies]

I used to think it would be ok to build it from the northern outskirts of Calgary to the southern outskirts of Edmonton and then use the LRTs to get people downtown, but that rather destroys the one big advantage of a high-speed train, the "speed" part. Downtown to downtown would make it perfect for business travel and the LRT is already designed to feed people into downtown... but I doubt it'll ever happen. Can you imagine the political shartstorm if the gov't proposed spending a few billion bucks on a project like this?

[You Need a Thneed]

HSR would be nice, but spending the money right now on expanding LRT systems would be money FAR batter spent.

HSR from Calgary to Edmonton with a $50 one way ticket makes it very appealing to many people. A $200 price tag and it's a white elephant. If it takes longer than 90 minutes from downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton, it's a waste, and it should have stops at least in Red Deer, at the Calgary Airport (hopefully serving an LRT line as well), and at the Edmonton Airport (or southern Edmonton).

The line will have to have at least TGV speeds to stop at all those places and still make it from downtown to downtown in 90 minutes. If we spend any money on the project, it\s worth the investment to spend a little more for increased speed capabilities, as it shouldn't cost a while lot more. Buying the right of way and building the track and the grade seperations for road/rail intersections all have to be done no matter how fast the train is going.

Using the existing track/right of way isn't even worth talking about. One freight train could slow down the whole operation, and that would happen a lot.

[fredr123]

Bumping (I think) is the latest discussion on CP surrounding a proposed high speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton. Why? A TEMS report is being released today and is being discussed at a closed door meeting today between federal and provincial Tories.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Pr...614/story.html

Cost is estimated at between $3-20B depending on the type of train used. Five train stations are being considered: one each at Calgary and Edmonton's airports and downtowns with a fifth in Red Deer.

[edn88]

Wish there was the political will to put a bullet train across Canada, with stops in all of the major centres. I know it would cost a lot, but I think that the long term benefits would be worth it.

[worth]

Maglev!

[ken0042]

Land has been assembled in Calgary and Edmonton, the provincial government is eyeing transportation corridors and there's growing corporate and public interest in the project, but a high-speed train won't be leaving the station any time soon in Alberta.

[octothorp]

I've said it before (actually, I thought I said it in this thread but I can't seem to find my post) but any high speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton needs to be part of a transit equation that's door-to-door, not simply hub-to-hub. That means that both cities need to get a much more efficient internal transit structure.

That said, I'm surprised Edmonton isn't more on-board with this. Yeah, the airport there will suffer, but the overall tourism would go up. The Calgary/Banff region is starting to seriously outpace Edmonton in terms of international tourism (I read some stats recently on this, no idea where though). Edmonton jokes aside, if people can take a quick rail up to Edmonton, it makes it a much more appealing day-trip, particularly for European and Asian tourists who are already very familiar with rail travel.

[mykalberta]

Political leadership is non existent in Alberta. If there was, I think you go ahead with this project now with completion date in 5-8 years. With AAA credit rating the financing costs would be minimal. I think the company that runs it should be structured the way Calgary owns Enmax. Private non union operations which is responsible for all future operations and operating costs.

This also requires on behalf of government to not expanding Highway 2 between Airdrie to Red Deer and Lacombe to Leduc. They will face flack but expanding the highway makes HSR even less feesible.

Total agreement that this needs to be a 60min downtown to downtown link. If they can secure that they should be able to get premium pricing to airlines.

[calgaryrocks]

a downtown to downtown link would be great for both cities, but I agree that they need to make the internal transit within the cities better first. so i can take a train to edmonton in 1/3 the time, but then where can i go? same to calgary (although we have a bit more of an expansive system)
more transit is a great way to get cars off the road, but with not an extremely high population, it needs to be more attractive to not have a vehicle in another city.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Political leadership is non existent in Alberta. If there was, I think you go ahead with this project now with completion date in 5-8 years. With AAA credit rating the financing costs would be minimal. I think the company that runs it should be structured the way Calgary owns Enmax. Private non union operations which is responsible for all future operations and operating costs.

Yeah, I'd go for that structure. Maybe I'm just bitter, but the last thing I want to see happen is for this to be turned over to Via, and I cringed as soon as they were mentioned; they've already abandoned the Calgary market once, I don't trust them to tough out the ebb and flow of our Albertan economics. We need a company that is looking at the long-term development of this into a viable business.

[Pastiche]

If you read the cost/benefit of these type of projects you need either very high energy/carbon prices or overly optimistic demand. I would love to see a high-speed train as much as the next guy but it has all the makings of a massive waste of money for the amount of people that would actually use it. I would rather this money goes to fund a network of CO2 pipelines for carbon capture and storage.

[mykalberta]

Car rental/Taxis/Bus etc. If someone is looking for a day/weekend trip and they have a family pricing model durring non rush hour then I think its an attractive option. You arent going to get Red Deer day trips but I think a stop in Red Deer is there to increase the status of Red Deer in the province to make it into a major city as well.

The bus system in Edmonton is far superior to Calgary. It just lacks the train portion to places a tourist would want to go.

This service would be geared toward buinsess travellers at the beginning and not day vacation day trippers who are looking to save 20$

I know for the convienience I would use it when I go visit friends on a long weekend if the round trip was ~$100 for non peak hours. I have thought about Red Arrow but it doesnt save me any time and its the same price.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yeah, I'd go for that structure. Maybe I'm just bitter, but the last thing I want to see happen is for this to be turned over to Via, and I cringed as soon as they were mentioned; they've already abandoned the Calgary market once, I don't trust them to tough out the ebb and flow of our Albertan economics. We need a company that is looking at the long-term development of this into a viable business.

+1

I dont like the idea of tax payers footing the bill and then just gladhanding it to some private company to see the beneft. I also dont want to see Alberta HSR turned into Air Canada with crabby old flight attendents who work their for the pension. The company should be owned by the Alberta Gov but the employees should not be gov employees.

Alberta should politely tell Via that we dont want your union problems or you dysfunctional management/operations structure.

[Ford Prefect]

I like the idea of leaving Edmonton at 250-300 km/h. Of course, I like the idea of not having to go there in the first place even better.

To be serious though, I think this is a good idea. Even if there is little or no time and cost savings, it will reduce traffic on the QEII, and is a positive enviro move. And it should save at least a little time and money for travelers. This has been talked about since the '70s though, so I don't see it moving forward until the provincial gov't is running surpluses again.