Confederate Flag

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I don't buy it...firstly maybe slavery would have ended because of economics but under the southern paradigm would they have been emancipated? That would be a much bigger challenge for Confederate leaders to sell to their constituents.

So you may have slavery becoming obsolete but not ostracized.

If you think full civil rights in the US took too long after the North won...imagine how long the current progress in civil rights would have taken if they had lost.

Since we are on the topic some of you may find this book interesting...

The argument I'll make is that the slavery issue was only going one way. Worldwide society was moving away from slavery. The south couldn't have isolated themselves from the rest of the world to the point where they could have ignored the external pressure that would have been put on them.

By no means am I saying it would have been quick or easy, but I am saying it would have happened.

EditPS: The book looks interesting. It's on the list.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by valo403

I've lived in poor white neighborhoods and poor black neighborhoods, or at least very close to both (University campuses don't really count as part of the neighborhood IMO) and I've found the same situation in both.

Pointing to skin color is foolish, in my experience the people of those communities were quite similar, most were hard working people with little education struggling to get by. Some had a chip on their shoulder and were looking for the easiest way to make a buck. The color of the skin in the area didn't change much at all.

Where did you find a large community of poor white people? As poor as the poor black neighborhoods? I find that very difficult to believe.

In my experience, and it is extensive and daily, the poorest white folks (urban areas we are talking here) live in the same neighborhoods as the poorest black folks. The difference is that they make up about 2% of those neighborhoods.

Again, I seriously doubt you've seen a poor white American neighborhood that compares in any way to a poor black neighborhood.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Where did you find a large community of poor white people? As poor as the poor black neighborhoods? I find that very difficult to believe.

A trailer park is the only thing I can think of.

I've seen some horrible places with predominately white population. But nothing compares to the ghettos of Chicago, Toledo, LA and SF.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Where did you find a large community of poor white people? As poor as the poor black neighborhoods? I find that very difficult to believe.

In my experience, and it is extensive and daily, the poorest white folks (urban areas we are talking here) live in the same neighborhoods as the poorest black folks. The difference is that they make up about 2% of those neighborhoods.

Again, I seriously doubt you've seen a poor white American neighborhood that compares in any way to a poor black neighborhood.

It's called Mid-Michigan

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

A trailer park is the only thing I can think of.

I've seen some horrible places with predominately white population. But nothing compares to the ghettos of Chicago, Toledo, LA and SF.

Exactly my point. The differences are exponential.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's called Mid-Michigan

AH! You've been to Flint! I might give you that one.

Even so, it's not representative of the rest of the country.

[starseed]

IMO all slave owners should have been executed. I dont think some people here really understand that these people were inhuman monsters. The way they treated these human beings was absolutely unforgivable. The south may have eventually been pressured to give up slavery, but not until many more lives would have been mangled and destroyed. The South would have had less pressure to stop racism and laws that keep black people from having full equality. If Rosa Parks had not sat in the back of the bus in Confederate Montgomery, would the reaction have been the same? I think it is complete ridiculous BS to think that the lives of black Americans would have improved if the Confederate states had won the right to secede.

The way I see it, the South was fighting for the right to run oppressive societies, and the North was fighting to maintain the idea of a freer and stronger America.

[Azure]

What is worse? Slavery, or murder? Murder sanctioned by the government?

Your version of the civil war is completely screwed up starseed.

There were slaves in the North as well. In fact, a lot of the Union government officials, including Lincoln himself, grew up in slave owning families.

But hey, keep your romantic view of the North. The rest of us will stick with reality.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Where did you find a large community of poor white people? As poor as the poor black neighborhoods? I find that very difficult to believe.

In my experience, and it is extensive and daily, the poorest white folks (urban areas we are talking here) live in the same neighborhoods as the poorest black folks. The difference is that they make up about 2% of those neighborhoods.

Again, I seriously doubt you've seen a poor white American neighborhood that compares in any way to a poor black neighborhood.

A lot of rural communities are extremely poor and populated by white people.

I agree you won't find the densly packed urban areas filled with extremely poor whites, the same way you do with blacks.

http://www.omhrc.gov/templates/brows...lvl=2&lvlID=51

"According to the 2007 Census Bureau report, the average African-American family median income was $33,916 in comparison to $54,920 for non-Hispanic White families. In 2007, the U.S. Census bureau reported that 24.5 percent of African-Americans in comparison to 8.2 percent of non-Hispanic Whites were living at the poverty level. In 2007, the unemployment rate for Blacks was twice that for non-Hispanic Whites (8 percent and 4 percent, respectively). This finding was consistent for both men (9 percent compared with 4 percent) and women (8 percent compared with 4 percent). "

To be fair though, Given that there are 5-6 times more whites in America than blacks that still leaves far more whites below the poverty line than balcks (about twice as many).

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by blankall

A lot of rural communities are extremely poor and populated by white people.

I agree you won't find the densly packed urban areas filled with extremely poor whites, the same way you do with blacks.

http://www.omhrc.gov/templates/brows...lvl=2&lvlID=51

"According to the 2007 Census Bureau report, the average African-American family median income was $33,916 in comparison to $54,920 for non-Hispanic White families. In 2007, the U.S. Census bureau reported that 24.5 percent of African-Americans in comparison to 8.2 percent of non-Hispanic Whites were living at the poverty level. In 2007, the unemployment rate for Blacks was twice that for non-Hispanic Whites (8 percent and 4 percent, respectively). This finding was consistent for both men (9 percent compared with 4 percent) and women (8 percent compared with 4 percent). "

To be fair though, Given that there are 5-6 times more whites in America than blacks that still leaves far more whites below the poverty line than balcks (about twice as many).

As you alluded, I was really only talking urban because that is where most of poor black America lives.

That said, there are some unbelievably poor white areas in Appalachia. I'm sure Tranny can attest to that and some of the stuff he's seen in connection with it.

[starseed]

If you treat another human being like cattle, murdering them for disobedience, torturing them for trying to escape, then IMO you have forfeited your right to exist. It may be cold, but the world needs more Rambo.

The North may have still had some slaves, but it was Lincolns moves to start to abolish it that set Southern politicians foaming at the mouth. The North was more sensitive to the idea of what freedom was, the South's barbarism is what started secessionism.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by starseed

If you treat another human being like cattle, murdering them for disobedience, torturing them for trying to escape, then IMO you have forfeited your right to exist. It may be cold, but the world needs more Rambo.

This is a pet peeve of mine.

Judging past events with today's morality is futile / ineffective.

The North may have still had some slaves, but it was Lincolns moves to start to abolish it that set Southern politicians foaming at the mouth. The North was more sensitive to the idea of what freedom was, the South's barbarism is what started secessionism.

This paragraph is almost wholly incorrect.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

AH! You've been to Flint! I might give you that one.

Even so, it's not representative of the rest of the country.

True, my point is simply that if you put people into that situation their outlook is pretty similar regardless of the color of their skin.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

As you alluded, I was really only talking urban because that is where most of poor black America lives.

That said, there are some unbelievably poor white areas in Appalachia. I'm sure Tranny can attest to that and some of the stuff he's seen in connection with it.

Yeah. The urban areas are always going to be much worse. Not only do you have the increased population density, but you have the extra problems of the big city.

Imagine taking the worst parts of neighbourhoods like East Hastings in Vancouver and putting those on top of the problems of violence, crime, and drug use associated with poverty.

[hixxes]

Originally Posted by fatso

So your argument is that most Albertans who invoke the Confederate flag likely aren't racist or history buffs, but just stupid?

I agree with that proposition. However, I'd further argue that if you're stupid enough to just throw up a foreign flag on your car without bothering to learn the history and various cultural meanings of that flag, chances are... you might be a redneck!

I'm reluctantly posting in this thread as I'm one of those stupid rednecks who associate the flag more with the Dukes of Hazzard and Southern Rock from the 70's than anything else. I would never wear or display the Confederate Flag myself as I'm not from the south or a Duke boy, but I certainly don't see the flag and immediately assume the person displaying it hates black people.

As for the second part of the post I quoted, that reminds me of someone who gets a tattoo of a symbol or letter from a different culture without looking up or doing any research into what it might really mean. I'm sure there's more than a few people walking around with a 'cool' looking Asian symbol on their back and have never confirmed that it means "respect" and not "I love chicken".

[TurnedTheCorner]

Sad that this circle jerk of a thread is still going. What a great display of debating prowess to go on for hundreds of posts over this.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Sad that this circle jerk of a thread is still going. What a great display of debating prowess to go on for hundreds of posts over this.

And yet you post in this thread. Sad.

[missdpuck]

Transplant would see a lot more of these than I do, but they were more common down here 10 yrs ago. Then many of the "redneck" areas of SoFl were bought up and turned into upscale or gentrified areas. I noticed several black guys in with some of these groups. Seemed to be more a rebellion thing than a racist one, more socio-economic (meaning get these damn Yankee developers outta here) than anything.

The fact that you see them in Canada is hilarious! Maybe this is similar to Americans who'd never been anywhere near England parading around with their Union Jacks in the 70s- early 80s,

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

I see what your saying but what about natives in the US? Or better yet, Canada. Europeans took their land, brought diseases, mass murdered them and built nations and economies over their land with little consideration for them while putting them on small reserves. It's been hundreds of years and they are still alienated and poorly integrated into society. Sure, when you see one committ a crime, harass people on transit or make asses of themselves while wasted they don't do themselves any favours but neither have the majority. All parties are to blame.

Natives have their own issues. They are a lot harder to generalize because unlike blacks they reside in their own micro ethnic groups. What I mean is a member of a Mohawk tribe and a member of a Cree tribe will have had similar experiences(especially regarding racism) but, also will have their own unique cultural experiences. Many Natives also don't want to live the American(or Canadian) dream. They want respect and acceptance but, as Mohawk/Cree native or whatever tribe they belong to. They are also seemingly in the process of rediscovering what it means to be a native Mohawk/Cree/or whatever. This introspective has the potential of taking the best from their past along with a little invention in the present to produce a cultural identity Canadians and Americans could learn a few things from. Right now Native communities seem to be in flux. I don't know if one can measure their success or failure until they have determined what we are to use as the measuring stick.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Natives have had a much, much tougher go of it. Most people are oblivious to their plight.