Ongoing Calgarians complaining about pedestrian bridges thread

[CaptainCrunch]

More stories on the issues with the Dallas Calatrava bridges, the good and the bad

http://cbs11tv.com/local/Calatrava.s....2.494429.html

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2006-0...ews/eye-candy/

The man himself visits Dallas, also discusses engineering issues bought up by the corp of engineers.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...a.36b66e3.html

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yeah it might have come in less expensive with a better looking design, but we'll never know because this city council was label infatuated long ago.

Exactly! If we're going to use expensive designers then Bronconnier shouldn't whine to the media when the Stelmach govt isn't giving the city enough money for infrastructure projects.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Table 5

When you were in the army, did you take a vote on every military action? Or did you trust your commanders to do the right thing?

Umm, when it came to procurement and spending money you can bet we went out to tender, I don't see how this is in any way the same. Your dealing with budget and taxpayer dollars on a project like this, then you go out to bid.

Originally Posted by Table 5

I think sometimes you have to trust the people you put into power, and let them do their thing. Dissecting every little action will drive everyone mad and nothing will get done. If you don't agree, you can always make your vote count the next time.

I don't think that the city council in its current form has done anything to earn that kind of level of trust.

I don't think I need to restate my objectives to this bridge, I did state them pretty clearly earlier in this post.

However after looking at the issues with the bridge projects in Dallas, I have a gut feeling that a 23 million dollar budget will suddenly explode to 40 or more million in actual costs, especially with the unique engineering issues with this bridge and its location. My preference would be to see a public feasibility study, or engineering study before we get all excited about this bridge.

Plus, its ugly.

If we were going to use international designs, we should have at least contacted more then this one individual. Cecil Balmond for example builds really nice structures

[Table 5]

If you guys are convinced that Calatrava will be over budget before construction even begins, how are you so sure that these other mythical awesome designs wouldn't be as well?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nik-

Yup, we'll never know. We can safely compare this City Council to the Nazi's.

Give me a fricken break. But tell me where this council has given themselves any leeway at all in terms of public trust.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Table 5

If you guys are convinced that Calatrava will be over budget before construction even begins, how are you so sure that these other mythical awesome designs wouldn't be as well?

There's from my understanding a pretty vast history of his stuff going over budget.

Like I said, I don't object to the concept of a bridge, I do object to the method of arriving at this particular bridge.

I do object to spending infrastructure dollars on this when that money could have gone to more crucial projects that the city needs to do.

[CaptainCrunch]

More on Balmonds stuff.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/ar...ouro.html?_r=1

[Table 5]

Capn, with the way sprawl has been allowed to run loose in Calgary, the city spends countless of millions of dollars trying to just maintain roads and infrastructure in suburban areas where I doubt you or I will ever set foot in.
You'd save yourself many more tax dollars taking on that fight than this one.
If it's all about priorities and spending money the right way, you have a lot of long battles on your hands before you get to this bridge.

[Table 5]

See, I'm not the hugest fan of Balmonds work myself (and I say this having met the guy)...but hey, I understand that many people are. Him and Arup are more than welcome to enter the next competition.

[V]

Originally Posted by nik-

Just think of the costs if we had competition on everything haha oh man.

What are you talking about?? Every single project going through the City these days goes through an RFP process. It's a part of the TILMA regulations. It actually blows me away that this project was allowed to be handed over to one specific person. It's really unheard of, for a City project.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Give me a fricken break. But tell me where this council has given themselves any leeway at all in terms of public trust.

Ton of money is spent by City Councils around the country every day without input from the public because the public can't agree on anything.

They are elected officials and made an infrastructure decision, you're not going to be asked your opinion for every little thing. That's the way it is.

People need to stop crying.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by V

What are you talking about?? Every single project going through the City these days goes through an RFP process. It's a part of the TILMA regulations. It actually blows me away that this project was allowed to be handed over to one specific person. It's really unheard of, for a City project.

The city wanted a footbridge and went to someone renowned worldwide for his bridges.

I personally have no problem with this. The guy has a resume that warrants people going directly to him.

[V]

The same could be said for some of the competitors on the West Line. Do you think they should have been handed the contract?

[trew]

Just found a great blog site, happypontist.blogspot.com, from a bridge designer in the UK. He has lots of really interesting stuff to say about the Calgary Peace bridge.

My summary of what this guy says about the Peace bridge project is that:

- The architecture fee is higher than normal, but if the cost estimate is correct, it will be a good value overall.

- This project is complicated and an overrun is very possible.

- He also talked about the bidding process, and mentioned that a full blown competition would be an expensive waste of time, but an invite among a few qualified bidders would be the normal preffered aproach.



Link about the released design:

http://happypontist.blogspot.com/2009/07/calatrava-springs-surprise.html

What he said last year about the competition process (or lack thereof) in Calgary:

http://happypontist.blogspot.com/2008/09/calgary-calatrava-or-competition_18.html

Also, he has a link to the following City of Calgary cost comparison document, saying the costs presented are fair:

http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/transportation_infrastructure/bow_river_pedestrian_bridge/bridge_cost_comparisons.pdf


However he also points out that:

given how astoundingly inefficient a helical truss will be at 130m span (pity Calatrava's poor local partner, Stantec, whose job it will be to make it stand up), Calgarians shouldn't take budget assurances at face value just yet.

Finally. A nice balanced view of the project from someone who gunuinely
seems to know what they are talking about!

Why is it that the best information about this project comes from some blogger in the UK? Wouldn't it be nice if our newspapers contained half of the information this guy's website has?

[V]

Wow, that's a really good read.

Exhibit A on why today's newspapers are irrelevant and a waste of time.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Ton of money is spent by City Councils around the country every day without input from the public because the public can't agree on anything.

They are elected officials and made an infrastructure decision, you're not going to be asked your opinion for every little thing. That's the way it is.

But this is something CLEARLY the public did want to weigh in on. What was the last issue Calgarians voted directly on? Fluoride? Why not put this one to a vote? It's not like the public is demanding it for "every little thing". It's actually pretty rare.

As much as people need "stop crying" - I frankly like the fact that the public for once is getting involved in an issue.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But this is something CLEARLY the public did want to weigh in on. What was the last issue Calgarians voted directly on? Fluoride? Why not put this one to a vote? It's not like the public is demanding it for "every little thing". It's actually pretty rare.

As much as people need "stop crying" - I frankly like the fact that the public for once is getting involved in an issue.

People have just been whipped into a frenzy by the Dinger Bell's of the world on this issue, if they would have picked something else to stand on a soapbox about then it would have been that the people were getting involved in.

Until the fiscal hawks start complaining about some of these billion dollar road projects and multi million dollar interchanges I just can't take them seriously.

[V]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But this is something CLEARLY the public did want to weigh in on. What was the last issue Calgarians voted directly on? Fluoride? Why not put this one to a vote? It's not like the public is demanding it for "every little thing". It's actually pretty rare.

As much as people need "stop crying" - I frankly like the fact that the public for once is getting involved in an issue.

I just can't get behind that, Jiri. The public is so short-sighted, that if a project does not directly positively impact them, they will be against it (at least the majority). It's up to City Council to decide what infrastructure is required, where it is required, and how much money needs to be spent for the infrastructure to be installed.

I think it's clear that Bronco wanted Calatrava's name. I think that's wrong, and the sole-sourcing the design is probably where the beef should be, but I cannot agree that we should allow the public to decide what we should be spending for infrastructure.

[V]

Originally Posted by nik-

People have just been whipped into a frenzy by the Dinger Bell's of the world on this issue, if they would have picked something else to stand on a soapbox about then it would have been that the people were getting involved in.

Until the fiscal hawks start complaining about some of these billion dollar road projects and multi million dollar interchanges I just can't take them seriously.

Very few of those are City projects.

[CaptainCrunch]

This city council hasn't done a good enough job to be trusted and thats where the problem is. They also got sticker infatuated over the name of this bridge, and to me thats wrong.

For the people that say that we should quit crying about it, plainly you don't understand what demcracy is, and like Jiri, I feel pretty good that people are getting galvanized about this issue because it probably means a better turn out at the next election.

To those that are angry about the complaints and then simply dismiss the complainants, your acting no better then this city council.

I fully expect that this is going to be a monumental boondoggle by the time its said and done.