Islamic violence is a worldwide occurence. Will it ever stop?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Hey just because he has 1 million more posts than myself, it doesn't mean he's allowed to be racist.

The question is, do you seriously think he seriously supports the idea of nuking the middle east?

Note my emphasis on serious, and note its opposite.

[_Q_]

I am not one to be offended by a joke, but I think that supposed "joke" is of very poor taste. The idea of nuking the entire middle east because of a few nut jobs that threaten the west is appaling.

Think of it this way, how would any of you feel if someone made a joke about 9-11? There are some things that shouldn't be joked about.

[ResAlien]

Moving on...No, there is no way that extremism ever goes away, in large part to the interpretation of several Koran verses. Here are a few...

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Extremists will always exist, we just hear more about the Muslim ones.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I am not one to be offended by a joke, but I think that supposed "joke" is of very poor taste. The idea of nuking the entire middle east because of a few nut jobs that threaten the west is appaling.

Think of it this way, how would any of you feel if someone made a joke about 9-11? There are some things that shouldn't be joked about.

Until 22.3 years later. Then its fair game.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I am not one to be offended by a joke, but I think that supposed "joke" is of very poor taste. The idea of nuking the entire middle east because of a few nut jobs that threaten the west is appaling.

Despite telling us you aren't one to be offended by a joke, it sure sounds like you are.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Think of it this way, how would any of you feel if someone made a joke about 9-11?

Probably depends on in what context it was said, who it was said in front of, and how funny it was. Some people are more uptight about jokes as evidenced by this thread.

Originally Posted by _Q_

There are some things that shouldn't be joked about.

Who decides what we are allowed to joke about? Obviously the moderators can decide on this forum.

In the greater scheme of things I'd steer clear of jokes involving graphical representations of the Prophet Mohammed. That could get ya killed.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Moving on...No, there is no way that extremism ever goes away, in large part to the interpretation of several Koran verses. Here are a few...

I'm going to guess you've never read Deuteronomy.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by 666DanceParty

As long as the CIA is still in business, there will be violence.

And is you are scared to go on an airplane because of 9/11, perhaps you might want to check out a few documentaries and learn a little more about what actually went down that day...

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I'm going to guess you've never read Deuteronomy.

And you'd guess wrong. I was just pointing out some Koran verses, I assume most here don't really read it, hell it's not like I do. Those particular verses help feed the terrorist / extremist mindset. Religion factors heavily into violence against non believers.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

And you'd guess wrong. I was just pointing out some Koran verses, I assume most here don't really read it, hell it's not like I do. Those particular verses help feed the terrorist / extremist mindset. Religion factors heavily into violence against non believers.

Aye. And Deuteronomy preaches violence against non believers in God in much the same way. However, most Christians ignore those verses and don't become terrorists. Just because a passage of a holy text can be taken in a violent manner doesn't mean that the people of that religion HAVE to be violent people.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I'm going to guess you've never read Deuteronomy.

Yeah, and Deuteronomy and other crazy things in the Bible make people do crazy things.

ANYWAY, I can see where y'all are coming from with the "if it wasn't religion, it'd be something else" idea, but the thing is, it is religion. They say it is. It ain't something else.

Sure, they may be fanatics because they are poor or uneducated or oppressed, but they wouldn't carry off some of this crazy stuff (like blowing themselves up) without some religious motivation.

You'd have a hell of a time (no pun intended) convincing someone to do this if you didn't give them some incentive that after they are "gone" they'll get some sort of reward.

Who ever heard of an atheist suicide bomber?

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Aye. And Deuteronomy preaches violence against non believers in God in much the same way. However, most Christians ignore those verses and don't become terrorists. Just because a passage of a holy text can be taken in a violent manner doesn't mean that the people of that religion HAVE to be violent people.

Obviously. Sorry if what I said made it come across that way, no, of course Muslims don't HAVE to be violent. Was saying "extremists" not clear? I'm not painting with broad strokes here. I guess I could have said "Here are some Koran verse examples of what extremist Muslims who advocate violence and terrorism would point to as their god telling them to do it."

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

You'd have a hell of a time (no pun intended) convincing someone to do this if you didn't give them some incentive that after they are "gone" they'll get some sort of reward.

Who ever heard of an atheist suicide bomber?

I'd argue the atheistic version of this could be self-immolation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation

There is a long history of this in protest of regimes and atrocities. Lots of example from the late 60's and early 70's in those countries that were brutally ruled by the Soviets.

No reward for most of these guys. There weren't getting a thousand virgins and a special spot in heaven. Why did they kill themselves? To try and make a difference for their fellow countrymen, or ethnic group. To change the world. To draw attention to the plight of a people.

Its a very powerful symbolic act. I know the guys who did it in the Czech Republic during the Soviet Occupation became national heroes and I learned about them when over in the Czech Republic last summer. The Communists had to move the grave of Jan Palach because too many people were flocking to it to pay tribute to him. But they still payed tribute to him despite the moving of his body.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Obviously. Sorry if what I said made it come across that way, no, of course Muslims don't HAVE to be violent. Was saying "extremists" not clear? I'm not painting with broad strokes here. I guess I could have said "Here are some Koran verse examples of what extremist Muslims who advocate violence and terrorism would point to as their god telling them to do it."

Okay. Obviously I'm doing a horrible job of getting my point across.

You said that you do not foresee the violence coming to an end soon because the extremists have these verses in the Quran to hold onto.

But if there are similar verses in the Bible, then why aren't Christian fanatics able to recruit young people into being terrorists?

Which makes me believe that this violence is more geo-political than religious.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Okay. Obviously I'm doing a horrible job of getting my point across.

You said that you do not foresee the violence coming to an end soon because the extremists have these verses in the Quran to hold onto.

But if there are similar verses in the Bible, then why aren't Christian fanatics able to recruit young people into being terrorists?

Which makes me believe that this violence is more geo-political than religious.

Back when most christians were as uneducated as most muslims are now, they were able to recruit the fanatics to thier cause. It was called the Crusades.

Now that most of the Western World is educated it's not so easy.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Islamic violence is a worldwide occurence. Will it ever stop?

I'm an optimist. I believe it will stop the same day violence between Christians, Jews, blacks, whites, atheists, agnostics, Freemen and animals ends.

Violence is hardly exclusive to Islam. I think you understand that but like the attention this type of thread brings you.

[PyramidsofMars]

Most religions are violent.

The three Abrahamic religions most certainly are.

Islam is the most violent and backwards currently because the Wahhabis managed through oil money and such to defeat the intelligent, progressive community which was making genuine progress in the region, hence ######ing things quite significantly.

I am half-Arab and hence am often assumed to be Muslim. That said, I've never really had any problems with racism or xenophobia in Calgary, in fact I get along with 'hicks', the sort of person you'd expect to distrust me, just fine, better than I do with 'my own kind' (not that I even like that sort of thinking). What I have faced is a mild initial distrust, which I don't think is particularly unnatural. Heck, I don't get worried exactly but even I get slightly nervous around full-on bearded and robe-wearing types because I know for a fact that several of that sort do believe in, if not the 9/11 sort of terrorism, some form of Jihad as a noble cause. I get uncomfortable around extremist Zionist Jews, I get uncomfortable around White Supremacists, I get uncomfortable around Black Power folk, I get uncomfortable around any sort of hardcore person who advocates violence as a 'noble cause'. It's not wrong to distrust these people, it's sensible.

It will stop with education. There are several places in the world where Islam and huge Western populations exist peacefully with no violence at all. It's not hard to see that these places are areas with better education systems- Oman and the UAE being great examples with large expat populations and no animosity between them and the locals (for the most part). The worst areas in the world for terrorism are either poor areas or areas with a repressed and severely worrisome education system- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.

What must stop from the position of white people is the confusion of Islam for an ethnicity. There are plenty of Christian Arabs, plenty of us who don't practice any religion. As for other sorts of Muslims how can you really tell with a glance the difference between a Hindu or Christian Indian and a Muslim Indian, granted the Muslim isn't surrounded by veiled women and has a gigantic beard?

It's natural human behavior to distrust a group of people of which a minority has been responsible for much violence around the world. This only becomes a problem when generalizations and actual hatred come into play.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

It will stop with education. There are several places in the world where Islam and huge Western populations exist peacefully with no violence at all. It's not hard to see that these places are areas with better education systems- Oman and the UAE being great examples with large expat populations and no animosity between them and the locals (for the most part). The worst areas in the world for terrorism are either poor areas or areas with a repressed and severely worrisome education system- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.

What must stop from the position of white people is the confusion of Islam for an ethnicity. There are plenty of Christian Arabs, plenty of us who don't practice any religion. As for other sorts of Muslims how can you really tell with a glance the difference between a Hindu or Christian Indian and a Muslim Indian, granted the Muslim isn't surrounded by veiled women and has a gigantic beard?

It's natural human behavior to distrust a group of people of which a minority has been responsible for much violence around the world. This only becomes a problem when generalizations and actual hatred come into play.

Good points. I'd thank you but I ran out of thanks. So I'll quote the stuff I like.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Really? That's a bit extreme. Yes let's get rid of 1.7 billion Muslims, since they are obviously inferior to us Westerners. How about we just bomb anyone that's ignorant here in the West too? I'm sure the world can do with a little bit less idiots like yourself if we want to acheive true peace.

As awesome as Locke is, there's no way he could make a hole THAT round over the Middle East. It would probably have more of a polygram or rhombus shape to it. That is, if he wanted to....Which I know he does.

On another note, I agree that we need less idiots.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Okay. Obviously I'm doing a horrible job of getting my point across.

You said that you do not foresee the violence coming to an end soon because the extremists have these verses in the Quran to hold onto.

But if there are similar verses in the Bible, then why aren't Christian fanatics able to recruit young people into being terrorists?

Which makes me believe that this violence is more geo-political than religious.

Christianity doesn't advocate violent conversion. The New Testament(new covenant) was extablished by Jesus Christ and communicated primarily through the Apostles. They preached about judgement and hell but, the Christian wasn't the administer of judgement: God is. And judgement is to take place the end of the world. Today is a time of grace; not judgement.

When Muhammad started his religion in 622 AD he seemed to have invisioned a peaceful religion but, his later writings show a shift towards forced conversion. Christianity wasn't setting a good example in Mohammad's day. The Roman State had adopted Christianity as its State religion about 300 years before and certainly had been guilty of various degrees of forced conversion itself. I'm sure there were also instances of the State church claiming God's roll as judge and executioner as well. Muhammad could very well have modeled his vision of a State religion after the Catholic system or more probably a combination of that and the ancient Israel state religious model described in the old Testament(old covenant).

Simply put Christianity that is practiced according to its holy book doesn't promote violence. Conversely, Islam practiced as Muhammad invisioned it will include forced conversion and conquest.

Yes one can take a piece of any book out of context and make it imply something it doesn't. But when that is done it is pretty easy to refute. What it says is what it says.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Really? That's a bit extreme. Yes let's get rid of 1.7 billion Muslims, since they are obviously inferior to us Westerners. How about we just bomb anyone that's ignorant here in the West too? I'm sure the world can do with a little bit less idiots like yourself if we want to acheive true peace.

Really? Hmmm, well, I thought the blast radius could stand to be a little bigger - maybe adding another 750 km or so to the radius... That's the beauty of interwebs - everyone has an opinion, green or otherwise...