Panic/Anxiety Disorders

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Great links and quotes Dion. Most people don't realize how questionable a lot of these studies are, or the history of drugs being taken off the market after being found to be deadly, marketing certain drugs as miracle cure all kinds of drugs only to find out later they are terrible for kids/elderly, etc.

I would have tried to find some of these myself at some point, thanks for the info. I might still try and find some more drug links later on. People just aren't informed enough about this given the high level of prescriptions.

There was a real good study that escapes my mind where in 1994 there were 4 SSRI drugs that were the top 4 in adverse side effects as reported by FDA. The article also focused on the ways drug companies do thier trials and how the results are manipulated to get favourable results. It also doesn't help that drug companies are the ones paying to have these trials done. If you want to selected to do another trail your results better be positive.

Then you have the extensive advertising drug companies do on TV in the States in regards to anitdepressents. Someone sees thier ads and rushes off to thier GP to get a perscription. Nothing like promoting a drug to better the bottom line.

[Shawnski]

You might want to look back at what changed at the time you started to experience these attacks. Perhaps your diet changed, which could lead to a lowering of B vitamins in the system. They are quite important, and are directly related to nervousness/stress.

Is your pee clear? That is usually indicative that you have next to no B vitamin excess (or more likely a shortage). Bright yellow pee indicates a high level of Vitamin B in the system, and it is just releasing the excess. Perhaps taking a Stress tab or other B-complex vitamin once or twice a day would help. Taking a Vitamin C tablet helps the system utilize the B-complex ones too.

FWIW, if you have a nasty night drinking, take a B-complex vitamin before bed... your hangover will be significantly reduced.

Edit, as for the diet situation, Vitamin B is prevalent in green leafy veggies. Eat well, feel better!

[FFR]

I haven't read through the entire thread but I figured I would add my thoughts. I suffered from panic attacks and constant anxiety about 5 years ago. It was like you described - a constant feeling in the pit of my stomach that made it hard to do anything. I would worry about nothing in particular - at least that I could think of. But then I'd worry that I was worrying about nothing. And the panic attacks caused me so much aprehension because I didn't want to ever be in a public place when one happened. I would always avoid lineups because they triggered an increase in my anxiety and movie theatres (not sure why but they were a killer). I dropped a few classes at university because the rooms made me uncomfortable. It was a nightmare. I didn't think I would ever be in control again. But I am.

I went to my doctor and explained what was happening and he basically told me that what I was experiencing was common and that we could deal with it. He started by giving my atavan which I would take when the anxiety got too great or I felt a panic attack coming and it worked really well. He gave me three refills but I ended up not needing any of them.

The second thing that I did was see a psychologist. I didn't see a psychiatrist ever. But the psychologist was instrumental in helping me deal with the anxiety. She taught me many techniques to try and control the symptoms of the panic attack. The biggest one was that I had to remember that I control my body. If I don't want to have a panic attack, I don't have to. It was the hardest thing in the world to believe at that time because I felt like I was completely out of control. But we met once a week, twice if it was a bad week, and talked about how to deal with things. Eventually, I got it under control and I don't see her anymore.

I still sometimes get the twinge in my stomach or I feel my heart start to race and get dizzy and sweaty but I know that I can control it. My doctor told me that it's not necessarily something that you can cure but that you can learn to live with. I guess he said that it can come and go. In my case, it's been all but gone since the first incident a few years back.

I don't know that anything I have to say really helps at all but it really is more common than you would think. The psychologist worked for me - I saw one at U of C when I was a student so the prices were not bad. But, like some of the other posters have said - as hard as it is, you can't let it run your life. The onyl way to get over it is to continue living like you normally would. And keep seeing your doctor, if you are comfortable with them. Because they are likely your best resource.

Just my two cents.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by I wanna be like Miikka

That is pretty much how all drug trials are conducted. They include a very detailed inclusion and exclusion criteria. It is a problem in clinical trials regarding cancer treatment because companies often reject later stage patients because they have a higher likelihood of dying and as such would make their results look worse.

Similarly, they have to restrict the type of depressed patients on the trial. Mild or Moderately depressed patients have a higher chance of responding due to the placebo effect which would make the drug look worse. After investing 200 million developing it the company tries to do their best to get it approved.

Exactly! It's all about fast tracking a drug to the market so they can make a profit on the people that use it. It doesn't give a patient much confidence that what he is taking is safe and won't cause any permanent damage to ones health.

Also manipulating the test to get a favourable result is a tad misleading as to the effectiveness of the drug.

After Serzone being pulled from the market I stopped taking antidepressents. I didn't want to be a guinea pig for some drug company.

Edit: I should also add, even though some trials are skewed like this, there are several medicines that are critical for treating mental illness. It doesn't mean they are guaranteed to work on you but they have shown great promise in current patients and in past clinical trials.

With regards to avoiding medications completely, well some modern medicines have a lot of question marks but some have been absolutely outstanding. To repeat what others have said, it all depends on you as a person. Some people will react beautifully to one drug but then react terribly to a more common drug. Medicines are out there for a reason, they definitely have their drawbacks but to full out ignore them in treating Mental Illness is a very bad idea.

Sure they have thier draw backs and i'm not suggesting we ignore these medications. I just think patients have to be more informed with what they are taking and the potential side effects to ones health. Just don't assume that a drug that has been tested is safe.

I personaly did 6 years of taking antidepressents. I didn't react well to the side effects which caused me to do greater research on what I was taking. I was shocked with what I found out and decided to try the non medication route. Dispite a few large bumps in the road I haven't had the need to go back to these meds.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Dion

There was a real good study that escapes my mind where in 1994 there were 4 SSRI drugs that were the top 4 in adverse side effects as reported by FDA. The article also focused on the ways drug companies do thier trials and how the results are manipulated to get favourable results. It also doesn't help that drug companies are the ones paying to have these trials done. If you want to selected to do another trail your results better be positive.

Then you have the extensive advertising drug companies do on TV in the States in regards to anitdepressents. Someone sees thier ads and rushes off to thier GP to get a perscription. Nothing like promoting a drug to better the bottom line.

Do you know how much things have changed in the last 10 years? A drug like Lexapro has almost no side effects.

I'm concerned with the way you are spinning your perspective, Dion. Of course there are issues with testing and regulating drugs; the profit motive can encourage drug companies to be not entirely transparent with their own processes. However, ignoring the benefits of pharmaceuticals and spewing this nonsense as being the untold truth is so close to what Tower does.

FlamesAddiction, no one here has said that drugs are the only way; only that they are one useful and important step to being treated. Do not self-diagnose, do not self-treat. See a medical professional, someone like your GP with which you have a personal relationship and who cares about your well-being.

Drugs do not work for everyone, but they do work. The negative side effects do not impact a majority of patients, and the extreme side effects like seritonen syndrome are exceptionally rare.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Dion

There was a real good study that escapes my mind where in 1994 there were 4 SSRI drugs that were the top 4 in adverse side effects as reported by FDA. The article also focused on the ways drug companies do thier trials and how the results are manipulated to get favourable results. It also doesn't help that drug companies are the ones paying to have these trials done. If you want to selected to do another trail your results better be positive.

Then you have the extensive advertising drug companies do on TV in the States in regards to anitdepressents. Someone sees thier ads and rushes off to thier GP to get a perscription. Nothing like promoting a drug to better the bottom line.

Yeah the pharmaceutical drug business is one of the biggest in the world. Just like with Tobacco companies and their "studies" earlier in the 20th century, drug companies will try and minimize the profile of bad side-effects. The truth comes out eventually but you could be one of the those unfortunates who was prescribed a deadly or harmful drug whose effects weren't completely disclosed or accurately reported. There are billions of dollars of profit at stake. You'd have to be naive to think that money isn't part of equation here. If they've spent millions developing a new drug do you think they'll scrap it if they find some serious side effects?

Some of the most worrying reports are those about drugs not being directly compared with placebos. It is sad to think that some are taking a very powerful drug with many bad effects when they might have recovered just as easily without it.

A book I'd recommend is Robert Whitaker. 2002. Mad in America: Bad Science, Bad Medicine, and the Enduring Mistreatment of the Mentally Ill. Perseus Publishing. (guess you know what angle it will be coming from

I'm going to list a lot of links. Some are very anti-drug and anti-psychiatry but its good to get the story from all sides especially if you or family or friends are taking medication or undergoing treatment

Lots of interesting links on this page
http://www.narpa.org/

More info about SSRI's and their danger
http://www.healyprozac.com/

Talking about the diagnoses and the arbitrariness
http://www.psychdiagnosis.net/default.htm

Antipsychiatry
http://antipsychiatry.org/

Remembering the horrors of lobotomys
http://www.psychosurgery.org/

Coalition against Psychiatric Assault
http://capa.oise.utoronto.ca/Home.html

Psychiatric Rights
http://psychrights.org/index.htm

International Network Toward Alternatives and Recovery
http://intar.org/

http://www.mindfreedom.org/

Psychiatric "Survivors" Archives of Toronto
http://www.psychiatricsurvivorarchives.com/

Canadian Mental Health Commission
http://www.mentalhealthcommission.ca...s/default.aspx

Canadian Mental Health Association
http://www.cmha.ca/bins/index.asp

Mad Pride
http://www.ctono.freeserve.co.uk/

Psychiatric Drug Facts
http://www.breggin.com/

Website from a now deceased guy who spearheaded much of the anti-psychiatry movement
http://www.szasz.com/

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by peter12

Do you know how much things have changed in the last 10 years? A drug like Lexapro has almost no side effects.

Well with the history of new studies and their discovery of previously unreported side-effects you have to be cautious about any drug having no reported side-effects.

Originally Posted by peter12

The negative side effects do not impact a majority of patients

Well clearly you aren't qualified to make that claim.

Originally Posted by peter12

However, ignoring the benefits of pharmaceuticals and spewing this nonsense as being the untold truth is so close to what Tower does.

People are saying be cautious about taking powerful drugs, do some research. And your response is to attack them and say, its all good man?

[peter12]

Got any Scientology links?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by peter12

Got any Scientology links?

What does that have to do with anything?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well with the history of new studies and their discovery of previously unreported side-effects you have to be cautious about any drug having no reported side-effects.



Well clearly you aren't qualified to make that claim.



People are saying be cautious about taking powerful drugs, do some research. And your response is to attack them and say, its all good man?

I never said that once. What I did recommend was to talk with your GP and find the right treatment. I'm not recommending that he dives head first and starts taking lithium or some tricyclic from 15 years ago.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

From Dr. Breggin's site (linked above):

"• Antidepressants cause emotional anesthesia and numbing or sometimes euphoria, providing a fleeting, artificial relief from emotional suffering.
• Neuroleptic or antipsychotic drugs disrupt frontal lobe function, causing a chemical lobotomy with apathy and indifference, making emotionally distressed people more submissive and less able to feel.
• Mood stabilizers slow down overall brain function, dampening emotions and vitality.
• Benzodiazepines suppress overall brain function, sedating the individual, with temporary relief of tension or anxiety at the cost of reduced mental function.
• Stimulants blunt spontaneity and enforce obsessive behaviors in children, making them less energetic, less social, less creative and more obedient.

The individual taking the drugs or the doctor, family and classroom teacher can mistakenly interpret these effects as an improvement when they reflect dysfunction of the brain and mind. As an egregious example, millions of school children are prescribed these drugs because schools find them easer to deal with when their spontaneity is impaired and when they become more compulsively obedient.

In the long run, all psychiatric drugs tend to disrupt the normal processes of feeling and thinking, rendering the individual less able to deal effectively with personal problems and with life’s challenges. They worsen the individual’s overall mental condition and produce potentially irreversible harm to the brain."

And he isn't the only Doctor on that bandwagon. Once you read some of the arguments from Doctors against a lot of the drugs being prescribed, it makes you cautious I would say. In many cases symptoms are being treated with drug that effect the brain in many ways. Root causes are often not known or addressed.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Since ECT was brought up earlier here's another bit from Breggin's site...

"Advocating Against Shock Treatment

In 1979 I published Electroshock: Its Brain-Disabling Effects. This was the first and remains the only medical book devoted to a critical analysis of this barbaric treatment. It has helped to support the anti-shock movement led largely by former mental patients and former victims of shock treatment. In 2008, Dr. Ursula Springer wrote a history of Springer Publishing Company in which she called the publication of my first medical book one of the highlights of her career. She described frightening encounters with shock doctors when she went as a publisher to medical meetings, including a threat to boycott her firm, which never developed. I continue to provide an isolated voice within psychiatry documenting the dangers of electroconvulsive therapy and calling for it to be abandoned.

I was the sole scientific presenter on the brain-damaging effects of shock treatment at the NIH Consensus Development Conference on ECT in 1985 and may have helped the panel recognize and report on some of the dangers associated with the treatment.

In 2005, I testified as the medical expert in the first trial in history in which a jury returned a malpractice verdict against a shock doctor in favor of the injured patient. It is a source of gratification that I have been the psychiatric expert in the first malpractice suits won against perpetrators of shock treatment and psychosurgery."

My half-brother was subjected to this treatment in the past 15 years. Through drugs and ECT he has become more and more of a zombie over the past 15 years or so. It hasn't been pleasant to watch and he ended up on the street last winter.

[Zevo]

Okay my 2 cents.

The OP was looking for advice on what he could do help his anxiety, not conspiracy theories about drug companies.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

There isn't a conspiracy. Drug companies have a duty to make a profit by marketing drugs that cost them millions of dollars to develop. They have a limited time to do so because patents in the drug industry are usually quite short. It doesn't take a genius to add that all up and realize that in order to make this profit, they may not put the health of individuals as their highest priority.

Money can corrupt ethical concerns. We've seen this in the past with Big Tobacco and its scientists who were paid to present studies that minimized the negative effects of Tobacco. A good fictional movie on this was "The Insider" with Russell Crowe about a whistleblowing scientist who testified against big Tobacco that they were suppressing the real dangers of smoking. The truth came out eventually. Just as it does when some of these drugs end up killing people or causing horrible complications. You can see it in lots of industries. There's the Fight Club example of car companies that make recall decisions based on whether they think a particular car problem will cost more if they recall the cars, or if they leave the problem out there and have to settle litigation.

There's no conspiracy. Just some massive corporations making billions of dollars selling drugs that alter brain chemistry. Part of the problem is the assumption that society is always progressing and finding newer and better cures. Sometimes they are just newer and not actually better.

Go research the way studies are conducted and the way drugs are marketed in the US if you don't believe it.

I think the OP got lots of great advice already on what he/she can do with the anxiety problem. If you don't like reading concerns about the ethical standards of the drug industry then skip over it.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

There isn't a conspiracy. Drug companies have a duty to make a profit by marketing drugs that cost them millions of dollars to develop. They have a limited time to do so because patents in the drug industry are usually quite short. It doesn't take a genius to add that all up and realize that in order to make this profit, they may not put the health of individuals as their highest priority.

Money can corrupt ethical concerns. We've seen this in the past with Big Tobacco and its scientists who were paid to present studies that minimized the negative effects of Tobacco. A good fictional movie on this was "The Insider" with Russell Crowe about a whistleblowing scientist who testified against big Tobacco that they were suppressing the real dangers of smoking. The truth came out eventually. Just as it does when some of these drugs end up killing people or causing horrible complications. You can see it in lots of industries. There's the Fight Club example of car companies that make recall decisions based on whether they think a particular car problem will cost more if they recall the cars, or if they leave the problem out there and have to settle litigation.

There's no conspiracy. Just some massive corporations making billions of dollars selling drugs that alter brain chemistry. Part of the problem is the assumption that society is always progressing and finding newer and better cures. Sometimes they are just newer and not actually better.

Go research the way studies are conducted and the way drugs are marketed in the US if you don't believe it.

I think the OP got lots of great advice already on what he/she can do with the anxiety problem. If you don't like reading concerns about the ethical standards of the drug industry then skip over it.

That's exactly what a conspiracy theorist would say.

I do know what you are saying but you are a little over zealous. my oldest step-daughter suffers from severe depression and ocd. She most assuredly would not be around today if not for her psychiatrist and the meds he prescribes. It's not all roses as there are side effects, but she is a (generally) happy and function human being.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Zevo

I do know what you are saying but you are a little over zealous.

Heh. Well it is on the mind lately as the most interesting class I have this summer is called Madness and Sanity in Society and has dealt with some very interesting issues. Before this class I was much less critical of psychiatry and the drug industry but it really opened my mind to some of these issues through the study of the history of psychiatry, watching videos of people's experiences with some of these drugs, videos of asylums, reading articles about LSD experimentation on people in Sask in the 60's I think it was, lobotomization, sterilization of children in Alberta in the 20th century due to low IQ test scores, the controversy over anti-psychotic drugs, etc. Psychiatry has a horrible history and unlike some I don't think its completely turned around. I think the prevalence of prescribing over counselling is disturbing, I think the biological model of mental illness has some issues. I think the WHO report that schizophrenics have better outcomes in the 3rd world (where anti-psychotics aren't available as readily) than the 1st world raises some serious questions.

I think the role that a person's attitude towards life, societal and familial expectations placed on them, stress at work and home, a person's social circle, whether they have people to talk to about problems and work out issues, etc all play a bigger role in mental than some believe.

Another reason why it is on the mind a lot for me are the issues my family is having with my brother who has been diagnosed in the past as bi-polar, and now is diagnosed apparently as personality disorder and alcoholic instead. He can't hold down a job now, he was on the street as of this Christmas phoning my parents all the time for favours and money, he got caught stealing, etc. Last I heard he was bouncing around between hospitals getting different diagnoses at each one. I believe he may finally be having to face his alcohol and attitude issues.

And another reason is the guy who lives next to me in Residence up at University is diagnosed with something and is taking several medications for it. We talk quite a bit about issues, about bad side-effects of his medication, about his attitude towards life, goals, and socializing and such. I'm not convinced his issues are brain chemistry related, I tend to believe that are much more influenced by attitude, lack of friends, expectations from his family, his goals in life, etc.

In 100 years they'll probably consider a lot of the drugs we use now barbaric treatments.

I do not think all drugs are horrible, and do not doubt that many have been helped. Just trying to point out that many have not, and have instead been harmed temporarily or permanently by psychiatric treatment.

In fact I really should stop procrastinating the essay I have to write for this Madness course...

[Methanolic]

I'm thinking that maybe some real life experiences and advice from others about how they have dealt with this ailment would be better than some of the above discussions.

I understand completely the passion expressed in some of the OP's comments, But seeing as how "FlamesAddiction" is somewhat "New" to this, Maybe it's better to focus on the fundementals.

....IMHO.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Dion

Nope. Health care covers the full costs.

Not a good assumption.

Some do cover it fully, but it varies widely. When I was seeing a pyschologist, I did so over two plans. One only covered $500 a year (pretty ridiculous), while the other covered 90%. That said, the cost was $160, and going every three weeks, it was worth it.

As far as medication goes, I have no great opposition to it, except that I don't think it should ever be used as the sole treatment. Go see a pyschologist in addition to a GP, and make a decision from there. Sometimes, it is just a chemical imbalance for which a pschologist can't help much. Often there is also a mental portion that they can help with, for which medication alone could not hope to solve.

Biggest thing to be aware of is that anti-depressants/anti-anxiety drugs totally F you up for a bit. If clonazepam is anything like the stuff I was on (Paxil), then expect to feel really wierd for about a week, FA, until you adjust. And I mean wierd. Once your body adapts, that should be fine. And expect to feel it, in varying intensities, as you change medications or dosages, if that becomes required.

In my case though, I found that it wasn't helping enough to justify the use, so I got off. For me, getting a control over my anxiety/depression was focussed around therapy, and after just under two years I finally got thrown back to the wild, as it were. Just over two years after I started now, I'm continuing to do a lot better.

Good luck... starting to address the issues is the hardest part. It gets easier from here.

[Methanolic]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

starting to address the issues is the hardest part. It gets easier from here.

Well said!!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Just in case anyone is confused (I myself used to find this distinction confusing)...

Psychiatrist - trained medical doctor who has taken further schooling to specialize in mental illness treatment. They will tend to prescribe drugs as treatments.

Psychologist - not a medical doctor and cannot prescribe. They are trained in counselling and therapy.

I've seen a lot of recommendations for seeing a General Practitioner, but wouldn't these guys have a lot less specialized knowledge than a Psychiatrist?