Residential Solar and Wind Energy Questions - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Ford Prefect · 07-26-2009, 04:41 PM

i was reading an article in yesterday's Herald that predicted electrical prices could triple in the not too distant future. That got me thinking ... maybe it's time to explore solar and wind energy generation for my home.

A quick browse through a couple websites for Calgary based alternate energy companies suggests that wind may not be practical for residential generation due to tower requirements and such. My house is ideally situated to collect solar energy anyway, so wind generation would only be a secondary generation source at best. While wind generation doesn't sound promising, solar does.

What I'm interested in is primarily electrical generation, although I've already discovered a home heating method that links solar with fans rather than having to retrofit an in-floor hot water heating system should I wish to to look at heating in addition to electrical generation.

I would love to hear from anyone in CP who has any knowledge and experience on residential solar and wind electrical generation, home heating, etc. How viable is it? The pricing I've seen ranges from about $6,000 to 22,000 for a solar retrofit. What would it cost to go off grid as far as electricity goes? $10K? More?

If anyone can share some wisdom on this so I know a little bit more before calling one of these companies I'd love to hear it.
Also, is installing alternate energy generation devices eligible for that Federal enviro grant for home renos?

Regulator75 · 07-26-2009, 04:46 PM

This isn't very helpful, but I've heard really good things about thermal energy for homes.

BlackArcher101 · 07-26-2009, 04:47 PM

They've been predicting a triple in prices for a while now... each time they keep pushing the date further.

When I did a bit of research into Solar energy back in 2004 for school, I found it was barely financially feasible to go completely off-grid. Not sure on how costs have changed from them to today, but in order to go neutral (ie, not pay or perhaps get money from the grid), the panels had to be large (150 sq.m) and the battery system was expensive. The cost to do so at the time was large, but the kicker is if you can afford a large up front sum and have it pay off 20-30 years down the road. Your best bet is to put a few panels up to lower your bill, this way you don't need the expensive battery system, but the panels and a converter. What do the city bylaws allow for solar panels?

As for using solar for heating, that I believe is somewhat economical and a good idea. If there's another thing that peaks my interest, it's geothermal for heating.

Ford Prefect · 07-26-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulator75

This isn't very helpful, but I've heard really good things about thermal energy for homes.

Geothermal? I have too, but solar I think would be cheaper to retrofit and more effective in my situation.

twotoner · 07-26-2009, 05:12 PM

I think trying to go completely off the grid in 2009 would be quite difficult and expensive. Check out www.nanosolar.com, by 2015 it may be more feasible. I think in the mid term we'll move to a model where we are still on the grid but we may generate and sell back to it a fair portion of what we use now. Companies like Enmax will move towards being administrator's of power rather than sole producers of it.

In the short term, focus on creating an energy efficient home. A high efficiency furnace, fridge, washer and dryer. Good windows and decent insulation are probably the most effective dollars you can spend right now.

Frequitude · 07-26-2009, 05:15 PM

You don't want to go off-grid. That would involve batteries, which are expensive and dirty. You want to go grid connected, so you can treat the grid like a big battery. When you're making more electricity than you need, you export it to the grid for credits. When you're using more electricity than you're making, you buy it off the grid at retail prices.

jolinar of malkshor · 07-26-2009, 05:34 PM

I have been looking into this as I am building a new home on 10 acres. It is very hard to find good places for info. Right now I am setting my house up so that I can add solar and wind at a later date. If you want to go off grid now, everything that I have read seems to point that you need to make quite a few life style changes in order for it to work. I bought a really good book about it and when I find the name of it I will post it for you.

Methanolic · 07-26-2009, 05:41 PM

A few months ago I saw a little expose' on TV about a guy who had a moderate house (1500 SQ FT) on a farm and he had invested in Geothermal as well as Solar collectors........NO Wind though. The part that made me want to puke! was when He said it will have paid for itself in 20+ years!!!

The technology exists and it is attainable, but it is way out of reach in terms of cost for the regular joe.

Ford Prefect · 07-26-2009, 05:53 PM

Thanks for the comments ... I figured I'd stay connected to the grid alright. Aside from it being rather difficult to be completely independent of the grid, I'm a little concerned about gas emissions from the storage batteries. Apparently there are ways to mitigate against these gases, but I'm a little hesitant. Plus, it only makes sense to be able to sell extra energy back to the grid when you're able to.

Does anyone know anything about small wind turbines? When I was on holidays down at Waterton this summer I saw a few small turbines set up on acreages that weren't on towers. They were just sitting on the ground on tripods. I always thought wind turbines had to be up on towers until i say these. Does anyone know what the scoop is with them?

Ford Prefect · 07-26-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twotoner

I think trying to go completely off the grid in 2009 would be quite difficult and expensive. Check out www.nanosolar.com, by 2015 it may be more feasible. I think in the mid term we'll move to a model where we are still on the grid but we may generate and sell back to it a fair portion of what we use now. Companies like Enmax will move towards being administrator's of power rather than sole producers of it.

In the short term, focus on creating an energy efficient home. A high efficiency furnace, fridge, washer and dryer. Good windows and decent insulation are probably the most effective dollars you can spend right now.

I've pretty much done everything I can in that regard already ... I have about 1/3 of my windows left to replace, but that's all all I can still do in that regard. Generating a little solar power therefore seems like the next step to me.

I have a huge south facing roof that I can deck out with quite a few solar panels, and it wouldn't be visible from the front street or within the yard, so it only seems to make sense to check into how I can take advantage of this.

I live in Drumheller, so we get a lot of sun and don't have to worry about inversions like in Calgary. It seems like a perfect setup for solar panels to me. I just took down four big old poplar trees in my backyard this summer, so my roof now has no obstacles between it and some pretty major Sol juice.

BlackArcher101 · 07-26-2009, 06:13 PM

Ah drumheller. Probably no bylaw worries for sure then

ken0042 · 07-26-2009, 07:52 PM

One of the things that kept me from going solar a while ago is how elecricity is charged. Out of a $100 electrical bill I would say that close to 1/2 of that is actual usage, and the rest is line fees, admin fees, line riders, fee riders, etc.

So out of a $10K investment into hardware, you aren't looking at 100 months to pay it off, but closer to 200.

Ford Prefect · 07-26-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

One of the things that kept me from going solar a while ago is how elecricity is charged. Out of a $100 electrical bill I would say that close to 1/2 of that is actual usage, and the rest is line fees, admin fees, line riders, fee riders, etc.

So out of a $10K investment into hardware, you aren't looking at 100 months to pay it off, but closer to 200.

Hmmm ... so taking that into consideration, it would be desirable to go off grid completely. That might require a combination of solar and wind, and batteries of course. Maybe it would be better to look into solar heating and try to cut the gas bill instead of trying to cut the electrical bill. I wonder if my roof is big enough to host enough solar panels to do both ... I have a pretty big chunk of south facing roof real estate.

If I can't pay off the investment in 10 years or less it's not really worth it.

Did you talk to any Calgary based companies or consultants when you were looking into it? If so, who did you talk to?

Ford Prefect · 07-26-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Ah drumheller. Probably no bylaw worries for sure then

Yeah, and even if there are bylaws that get in the way, everyone around here knows somebody on town council. Actually, the mayor here has a pretty solid green ethic, so I think he would work with anyone who wants to try something like this.

ken0042 · 07-26-2009, 08:52 PM

Where I was getting some of my numbers from was this Winnipeg based company:
http://www.solarsolutions.ca/

One question about solar heating- I'm concerned about the timing. I know my furnace barely runs during the day, but will run more at night. Add to that the fact that you have the fewest solar hours around the time you'd want it the most. I don't have any numbers nor have I seen anything on solar heat, so I could just be blowing hot air.

Rathji · 07-26-2009, 10:05 PM

Geothermal is where it is at IMHO, but I am pretty sure that it is not feasible (or legal even?) in the city. Even then, it is crazy expensive, but as a previous poster said it would be paid off in ~20 years. I don't know about you but if I had a way to live power bill free when I was 50, I would take it in a heart beat.

Solar power should be used to lower costs during the day, and to sell back to grid if your provider allows for such a thing. Adding a battery system to go off the grid totally is where it becomes economically undesirable.

jolinar of malkshor · 07-26-2009, 10:25 PM

Found the book. It is called "The Renewable Energy Handbook" Author William H. Kemp. Anything you need to know is in there. Off grid living, Solar, Wind, Photovoltaic, Batter selection, DC-AC conversion, Back up power generation, Bio fuels.

ken0042 · 07-27-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathji

I don't know about you but if I had a way to live power bill free when I was 50, I would take it in a heart beat.

That's what brings up a couple of points. Will I still be in the same house in 20 years time? And if I am, if I throw $10K into an RRSP, will I get a better return on it than I would by saving on my power bill? If I can get 6% interest then I would be further ahead that way. (Looking at it from a purely financial perspective; ignoring the green aspect.)

Plus, what will solar technology look like in 20 years? Or even 10 years? I think current solar panels are something like 20% efficient, but a was reading something about how a guy in Germany has been working on 50-60% ones. In 20 years would I want 20% panels on my roof when all the neighbours have 50% ones?

Shazam · 07-27-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

That's what brings up a couple of points. Will I still be in the same house in 20 years time? And if I am, if I throw $10K into an RRSP, will I get a better return on it than I would by saving on my power bill? If I can get 6% interest then I would be further ahead that way. (Looking at it from a purely financial perspective; ignoring the green aspect.)

Plus, what will solar technology look like in 20 years? Or even 10 years? I think current solar panels are something like 20% efficient, but a was reading something about how a guy in Germany has been working on 50-60% ones. In 20 years would I want 20% panels on my roof when all the neighbours have 50% ones?

You're forgetting the zombie factor. Especially German zombies.

LChoy · 07-27-2009, 09:55 AM

My girlfriend saw this thread and wanted to comment as she use to work for Bullfrog Power

In response to the person who asked about small wind turbines, these can be purchased from Canadian Tire or other similar stores but they aren’t that efficient as they only generate a few kWh of energy. For people who wish to put up their own turbine, I suggest going to http://www.canwea.ca which is the Canadian Wind Energy Association and the http://www.smallwindenergy.ca/ portion of their website. They have a pretty neat tool that allows you to put in your postal code and it can measure how windy your land is and whether or not it is desirable for a turbine to be erected.
After working at Bullfrog Power, we learned about some people who went off the grid, and were even able to produce excess energy to be put back onto the general grid for public use. If you’re 100% determined to go for it, be prepared to invest a lot of time and money into it. Solar panels are definitely needed, and it also depends on the orientation of your house and the amount of natural insulation (trees, shrubs) found around the home. Also, homes being insulated using natural materials such as straw bales can help limit the amount of energy the home uses. As someone previously mentioned, it all starts with home energy efficiency. The less power your home requires, the more likely you can go off the grid and perhaps create more energy than you need through your green energy sources.
For those who do not have the means to put up solar panels or wind turbines, an easier alternative is to visit http://www.bullfrogpower.com which allows you to stay connected to the grid, and increase the overall amount of wind power (in Alberta) that is put onto the general grid. Their website has a lot of great information and if you have any other questions, feel free to send them an email or give them a call (I know the people who respond to questions and they’re knowledgeable. They also get questions about going off the grid as well so they may be helpful in that regard).