Obamacare for old folks: Just 'cut your life short'

[Antithesis]

I don't know, maybe I'm way out in left field here, but if a poster who is directly involved in medicine is explaining their opinion to you on the state of health care in Canada, wouldn't their opinions carry more weight? It's like going to a plumber and saying, "What's the best type of pipe to use for this purpose?", then having them respond with "In my opinion ..." and you going "OMG YOU HAVE AN OUTLANDISH OPINION! HOW WILL YOU BACK THIS UP?!? YOU CAN'T!!!! OMGZ!!!!"

[starseed]

Well, until I find the numbers, I cannot say anything. I am just making random guesses. Obama needs to be responsible and make sure that the plan remains affordable while not driving the US further into debt past the recession. In the end, the American people should see the benefits of affordable health care, while not having to be jerked around and screwed by HMOs. It comes with a big price tag, but it is worth it for its benefits to society.

I think this will eventually bring the cost of healthcare down. Overhead costs will go down with less money going towards executive salaries and big departments comprised of people trying to get out of having to pay insurance claims. Costs should also go down with companies having to compete with the public option... it will force them to be more honest.

[Azure]

Honestly, I'm asking the same questions.

I don't trust the government to not try to slip the important details past Congress without telling them about it(see the Iraq War)....and 5 years later, the American people are paying for it.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I don't know, maybe I'm way out in left field here, but if a poster who is directly involved in medicine is explaining their opinion to you on the state of health care in Canada, wouldn't their opinions carry more weight? It's like going to a plumber and saying, "What's the best type of pipe to use for this purpose?", then having them respond with "In my opinion ..." and you going "OMG YOU HAVE AN OUTLANDISH OPINION! HOW WILL YOU BACK THIS UP?!? YOU CAN'T!!!! OMGZ!!!!"

No, had he said "In my opinion." I would have been fine, because it is his opinion, and yes I would put more weight in it.

What I wouldn't put weight in is a plumber saying, "This is the best part, for sure 100%" with out explaining to me why or what advantages it has to make it the best part with out question.

There are reasons he could be saying that; it's more expensive, the install takes longer (so he can charge for more hours worked) etc. If he said that, I'd likely do some research and likely ask another plumber.

My problem isn't that he has an opinion. It's that he has an opinion, states it as fact and then when asked to back it up refuses too because this is a message board?

PM sent, btw.

[Calgaryborn]

Probably the biggest problem I see with the plan is that it does nothing to control excessive lawsuits against Hospitals,nurses,doctors, ect... That alone causes medical costs to skyrocket. It's not just the insurance either. Doctor's tend to order many more tests than needed because of the threat of lawsuits. It sounds good on the surface but, it does contribute greatly to the cost of that one doctor's visit.

I also don't think the States can afford to offer the same level of care as Canadians have because of their military commitments. Health care is probably our #1 expenditure in Canada. Debt maintanance would probably be #2 and they are of course related. America's military budget is #1 in the States and that is something I don't believe they can neglect. The canidates to replace them as the world's super power are too scary for my likeing.

I think ultimately the American taxpayers need to consider what Obama has accomplished with the billions he has already spent. Has any of his financial models proven true so far? Do they really want to trust the government with this area of their life?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Interesting statement, considering the USA doesn't even have a free market health care system... Heavily regulated cartel of private and public companies with stuff like medicare and medicaid sprinkled on top is not a free market system, not by a long shot.

That's a fair point--though you could as easily argue that a real free market doesn't exist anywhere in the west.

However, I do agree that what the U.S. has is kind of a mishmash, combining the worst aspects of pretty much every possible system. For that matter, if there's a structural problem in Canada's health care system, it's similar; that is to say, it tries to have it both ways with public funding, but fee for service billing, which isn't terribly efficient.

It's still a lot more efficient than the mess they have down south, though.

[Weiser Wonder]

I personally can't wait to send the elderly that try to associate with me to Obama's Death Camp.

[I wanna be like Miikka]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

No, had he said "In my opinion." I would have been fine, because it is his opinion, and yes I would put more weight in it.

What I wouldn't put weight in is a plumber saying, "This is the best part, for sure 100%" with out explaining to me why or what advantages it has to make it the best part with out question.

There are reasons he could be saying that; it's more expensive, the install takes longer (so he can charge for more hours worked) etc. If he said that, I'd likely do some research and likely ask another plumber.

My problem isn't that he has an opinion. It's that he has an opinion, states it as fact and then when asked to back it up refuses too because this is a message board?

PM sent, btw.

I'll gladly carry on discussions with via PM but if that is what is bugging you then how about I rephrase it. Based on the papers I have read and the subject material I have been taught, I believe that Canada has the 2nd worst healthcare out of developed countries. I can provide you with facts/stats in certain areas showing that Canada is 2nd worst out of the developed countries, however, the overall ranking of being 2nd worst is strictly my opinion.

And please, if you want to have a grown up conversation about healthcare then start acting like one. Don't just PM me saying "Info Please." I'm ready for an adult discussion, I don't mind talking about healthcare, in fact I love it seeing as I'm in the field!

[Devils'Advocate]

Why do you want to discuss it by PM? Is it not pertinent to this thread? I think it would be germane to the discussion....

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ah yes, you've bought into the line of thinking that spending $1.5 trillion on a health care program that doesn't even cover everyone is a 'good thing'....because at least Obama is trying to do something.

Nevermind the military....Obama is spending recklessly on everthing. Biggest deficit ever....and its only going to get bigger.

USA. Great while it lasted.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the answer--I even said as much, that this original bill is probably not the answer. But for years, the only answer was keeping healthcare privatized--and again, that system IS. NOT. WORKING.

I'm not saying Obama is amazing or incredible, that his spending habits are right or wrong, nor am I saying this is the cure-all. But I like that it's moving in the right direction. It took years for anyone to get a minimum wage increase--and to me, this is similar. You start with this, it probably doesn't go through, but it gets the idea in place, and maybe years down the road, something actually gets done. It's a start, it's a sign of acceptance that the current system isn't working, and that's a positive step in and of itself.

I'm admittedly not a political person, I lean more toward apathy than either party--but I am a citizen of the United States, and I'm fortunate to have decent health insurance through work (though I'm also paying upwards of $75/month for one person--non-smoker, no pre-existing conditions, and I only pay 1/4th of the total cost.), but all too many people in this country aren't nearly as lucky. So the fact that there are politicians who are actually trying to make something happen to help those people makes me feel like the justice system might actually get something done for a change.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think ultimately the American taxpayers need to consider what Obama has accomplished with the billions he has already spent. Has any of his financial models proven true so far? Do they really want to trust the government with this area of their life?

Yea, for sure, I mean he's been President over 7 months!!! Why the hell hasn't he solved this recession thing!

Not suggesting he is perfect by any means. He's proven that too, but ferchrissakes, he's taken more action domestically in his short term as President that Bush did in 2 terms.

You know what has proven NOT to work? Trusting the private sector. The (largely) unregulated financial industry drove the US and the rest of the world into this crisis.

You know what also doesn't work? Not taxing the rich because they are the so called drivers of economic recovery. The 'rich' (the ones who might be able to lead an economic recover) are the first to pull their money out in times of crisis and the last to put it back in. That's a fact.

[flip]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

I used to love Obama but now i see him for what he really is.

The biggest fraud in the history of presidents. He promises a healthcare system when everyone knew America was trillions in debt i really cant see a universal healthcare system that could be financially supported by the American government.

Hey EDBTZ12, you earned this:

Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Billy Madison: Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.

As per usual, you are Mr Madison.

(for anyone counting this is only the 6th or 7th time I've busted this out, so you are among elite company)

[Azure]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the answer--I even said as much, that this original bill is probably not the answer. But for years, the only answer was keeping healthcare privatized--and again, that system IS. NOT. WORKING.

I'm not saying Obama is amazing or incredible, that his spending habits are right or wrong, nor am I saying this is the cure-all. But I like that it's moving in the right direction. It took years for anyone to get a minimum wage increase--and to me, this is similar. You start with this, it probably doesn't go through, but it gets the idea in place, and maybe years down the road, something actually gets done. It's a start, it's a sign of acceptance that the current system isn't working, and that's a positive step in and of itself.

I'm admittedly not a political person, I lean more toward apathy than either party--but I am a citizen of the United States, and I'm fortunate to have decent health insurance through work (though I'm also paying upwards of $75/month for one person--non-smoker, no pre-existing conditions, and I only pay 1/4th of the total cost.), but all too many people in this country aren't nearly as lucky. So the fact that there are politicians who are actually trying to make something happen to help those people makes me feel like the justice system might actually get something done for a change.

I think the American people should demand better.

Part of the whole problem is politicians who can type out some 1,200 page report on health care and get their bill through Congress without any normal civilian being able to understand what its even about.

There NEEDS to be some kind of health care reform, and yes it will have to be done by the government. But this isn't the answer.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Why do you want to discuss it by PM? Is it not pertinent to this thread? I think it would be germane to the discussion....

I PMd him, so I can just copy and paste what he said.

[Flames in 07]

nm

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

With a population of 300 million+ i find it hard to believe that a 3 percent increase in that bracket would even cover 1/100th of the cost.

You know that there is two sides to the coin right? more people may mean more costs, but it means more revenue as well, that 3% would be applied to alot of money.

Some of your posts in this thread suggest that you have to ignore alot of simple and factual datapoints to get to the conclusions you do.

I don't know what's perfect for the US as it relates to health care, but I can tell you with all the confidence in the world that the president that you think is a fraud helped paved the way to avoid financial armageddon about 5 months ago. Speak to very senior bankers and traders and they'll tell you that although they may not have been inches away, there was a very real scenario of all banks crashing in the US, then all entities would have removed their credit in every way they could, with each other and with their own banks.

To have the last 7 months unfold and for you to say that Obama is a fraud only means one thing, and that is you are not burdened to deal with reality very often.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I PMd him, so I can just copy and paste what he said.

Very bad netiquette. The P is there for a reason. I think the discussion of which systems DO work and which ones DON'T work is quite on-topic. IWBLM seems to disagree.... I won't drag him into a discussion he doesn't want to have here.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Very bad netiquette. The P is there for a reason. I think the discussion of which systems DO work and which ones DON'T work is quite on-topic. IWBLM seems to disagree.... I won't drag him into a discussion he doesn't want to have here.

It's two links, I don't think he'd mind.

[Methanolic]

Ian Astbury
Joe Strummer
Chi Pig
My GrandFather

.....& Chris Farley

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by Methanolic

Ian Astbury
Joe Strummer
Chi Pig
My GrandFather

.....& Chris Farley

WTF? lol