Obamacare for old folks: Just 'cut your life short'

[starseed]

The gap between rich and poor has been widening further and further thanks to reagan's conservatism, so I guess by that logic the state of the American economy should have been a lot better than it has been over the last couple decades.

Canada gets along just fine, and we have a much healthier economy... yet the gap between rich and poor is not as wide, and Canadians pay higher taxes at the end of the day.

[CrusaderPi]

Oh I can't wait for this thread to turn into an incoherent monster. The great thing is no one can predict where this crapstorm will take us.

Stay toon'd!

[wittynickname]

It's an interesting bill, as it's not quite "universal" healthcare, not really. It's not there to support those who have healthcare through their employers--it's to protect the people who have no healthcare otherwise. Which means that to me, this original draft of a bill for such coverage may not be the answer, but at least there's movement in the right direction.

If I've got to deal with a president helping to further the debt this country is in--I'd rather it happen while he attempts to help keep the citizens of the country healthy, rather than a president who spends recklessly on the military.

Just to throw in a personal experience. I grew up with a father who was self-employed. He never made a lot of money, but he made enough to get by, and to support a small family. About six years ago, the cost of insurance for himself and my mother skyrocketed from somewhere around 600 a month to over 1300 a month. There's no way that on what my father makes, that he can afford that. Which is unfair, because he's a working adult, he pays his taxes legally and regularly, and yet he can't afford healthcare in the current system.

So to me, this issue hits home, because the healthcare costs in this country are astronomical. And it isn't as if the current system is working--my grandmother died last May, and the runaround she got from the Medicare system for the last six months of her life was just atrocious. She got some pretty abysmal treatment from the government, after working until she was 70 years old.

Basically--it can't get worse than it already is.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by starseed

The gap between rich and poor has been widening further and further thanks to reagan's conservatism, so I guess by that logic the state of the American economy should have been a lot better than it has been over the last couple decades.

Canada gets along just fine, and we have a much healthier economy... yet the gap between rich and poor is not as wide, and Canadians pay higher taxes at the end of the day.

Ignore the gap.

How is taxing the people who you need to help the economy bounce back a good thing at this time?

Canada has regulations in place to help prevent all the crap that happened in the US. Bit different situation.

The US can't even provide Social Security without screwing it up somehow. Why should anyone trust them to provide good health care?

[Antithesis]

Why can't we just exterminate all old folks?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Why can't we just exterminate all old folks?

That's what this bill does. Try to keep up.

[ResAlien]

Are we finally implementing the groundbreaking ideas in "Logan's Run"? Hell yeah!

[FanIn80]

Wait a minute... you can buy a house in Detroit for 15k? What the hell is it made of, cardboard?

[bcb]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Wait a minute... you can buy a house in Detroit for 15k? What the hell is it made of, cardboard?

No it's a vacant lot on 8 Mile.

[Stumptown]

I'm self-employed and living in the US. I have three options for health care:
1) Pay out of pocket for regular check ups (about $250/year, really not that bad) and pray to Cthulhu that I don't get hit by a bus
2) Pay about $250/month to cover that ONE doctor's visit per year, for a policy with a $5000 deductible that doesn't even cover prescriptions (this is what I do, and I hate it), or
3) Pay about $500/month for a policy with very little deductible, but covers my doctor's visit and monthly prescriptions (about $100), but the insurance company fights every single charge and you end up paying out of pocket anyway.

And don't even ask about dental or vision care...

So, basically I have a choice of paying some insurance company well more than 10 times my average annual medical costs, or living in constant fear of random injury and disease. There's something really wrong with this equation, and someone's getting really, really rich of it, and it's not my family doctor. The news media keep talking about "the skyrocketing costs of medical care." My annual check-up hasn't changed cost in years, but my insurance premium has more than doubled in the last 5 years. It's a racket, and it has to stop, and the only way to get it to stop is government intervention. And the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies are doing all they can to stop it, and they're starting to get desperate...

[Montana Moe]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Wait a minute... you can buy a house in Detroit for 15k? What the hell is it made of, cardboard?

4BR, 1BA, 1500sq. ft.

$15,000

It is truly unbelievable until you actually see it. Watching a city die is a sad situation.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...202_1108023157

[Azure]

I don't think government intervention that includes a government mandated health care program is the solution to any of this.

Obviously, there needs to be some kind of reform though. Starting with cleaning up those insurance premiums.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by valo403

This may be up there as one of the most idiotic threads I've ever read

It's so dumb I didn't even dignify it with reading; I hired an illiterate hobo to interpret it into a kind of shuffling idiot dance. It was refreshingly coherent that way.

[Stumptown]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think government intervention that includes a government mandated health care program is the solution to any of this.

Obviously, there needs to be some kind of reform though. Starting with cleaning up those insurance premiums.

Well, since we're so into the "free market" in the US the only way to get any kind of reform is to offer an alternative source, which is exactly what the public option part of the plan aims to do. There is, once again, nothing in the proposals on the Hill right now that mandates participation in the government programs. That's another of the distortions that have been pushed by same people who say they believe in the free market, but can't stand any kind of outside competition. The medical industry cabal have been dodging regulation and paying millions to lobbyists for years to make sure that no reform can possibly happen under current laws. The government cannot "clean up" premiums because of our laws establishing corporate "personhood." The insurance companies have to be forced into reform though competition, and the only fair competition at this point is going to be the federal government. States, or even groups of states, don't carry enough weight.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ignore the gap.

How is taxing the people who you need to help the economy bounce back a good thing at this time?

Canada has regulations in place to help prevent all the crap that happened in the US. Bit different situation.

The US can't even provide Social Security without screwing it up somehow. Why should anyone trust them to provide good health care?

I agree with you that new taxes during bad times are a bad idea, but in this case, it has to be done. I really feel for the people who are struggling under the American system. The republican chairman and others in the GOP have constantly stated that they have the best healthcare system in the world... but the catch is that you have to be able to afford it. Every year that passes under this system, means a lot more people are not able to afford basic medical care.

I believe a good society is a society that ensures all its citizens can get that medical care. Obama's plan may not be able to cover everyone, but as you said, you cannot compare Canada's situation to Americas. There are many many problems in that system, and it has lead to overhead costs taking up an insane amount of the percentage of money spent on healthcare in the USA. In Canada, overhead costs look non-existant when compared to the USA.

We have problems with our system. We need to train more doctors, train more specialists and provide incentives to keep them here. But we need to keep things in perspective. Doctor shortages are not unique to Canada, it is a worldwide problem. We supposedly have enough doctors in this country, but some Canadians still have trouble finding a family physician if they live in rural areas... where doctors tend to prefer not to practice.

The situation down south is not going to be able to be fixed over night, but providing an affordable government run alternative to the insurance companies seems like the right step to me. I think it can, at least, help keep the insurance companies honest.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Stumptown

I'm self-employed and living in the US. I have three options for health care:
1) Pay out of pocket for regular check ups (about $250/year, really not that bad) and pray to Cthulhu that I don't get hit by a bus
2) Pay about $250/month to cover that ONE doctor's visit per year, for a policy with a $5000 deductible that doesn't even cover prescriptions (this is what I do, and I hate it), or
3) Pay about $500/month for a policy with very little deductible, but covers my doctor's visit and monthly prescriptions (about $100), but the insurance company fights every single charge and you end up paying out of pocket anyway.

And don't even ask about dental or vision care...

So, basically I have a choice of paying some insurance company well more than 10 times my average annual medical costs, or living in constant fear of random injury and disease. There's something really wrong with this equation, and someone's getting really, really rich of it, and it's not my family doctor. The news media keep talking about "the skyrocketing costs of medical care." My annual check-up hasn't changed cost in years, but my insurance premium has more than doubled in the last 5 years. It's a racket, and it has to stop, and the only way to get it to stop is government intervention. And the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies are doing all they can to stop it, and they're starting to get desperate...

Why I love my job and wicked benefits. 140 a month for 3 people , 20 dollar copay, cheap prescriptions.

[I wanna be like Miikka]

Originally Posted by starseed

The situation down south is not going to be able to be fixed over night, but providing an affordable government run alternative to the insurance companies seems like the right step to me. I think it can, at least, help keep the insurance companies honest.

The HMOs are the major problem with the US healthcare. Their administrative costs are out of this world. If the government could just step in with their own alternative for everyone or insert some regulations for HMOs like in other countries (Germany) then things would start to improve.

People in Canada shouldn't feel that great anyways. The US has the worst healthcare out of developed countries, with Canada following as the 2nd worst. In no other developed country do you have to wait 2 years for certain appointments or surgical procedures.

[EDBTZ12]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Wait a minute... you can buy a house in Detroit for 15k? What the hell is it made of, cardboard?

Did you forget the days of houses in Calgary being sold for 1 dollar?

[bcb]

Originally Posted by EDBTZ12

Did you forget the days of houses in Calgary being sold for 1 dollar?

That back in '83?

[starseed]

Originally Posted by I wanna be like Miikka

The HMOs are the major problem with the US healthcare. Their administrative costs are out of this world. If the government could just step in with their own alternative for everyone or insert some regulations for HMOs like in other countries (Germany) then things would start to improve.

People in Canada shouldn't feel that great anyways. The US has the worst healthcare out of developed countries, with Canada following as the 2nd worst. In no other developed country do you have to wait 2 years for certain appointments or surgical procedures.

From a list that I found, Finland, Australia, and Denmark rank lower than us but better than the USA. But regardless, we need politicians in Canada to start dealing with this problem. I have personally had nothing but great experiences with the healthcare system, and I used it a lot when I was younger (I am 21), but I have read about cases that make you step back and think.