Henry Louis Gates Arrested in his own home

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Does "other" independent sources imply that the officer is an independent source?

Good God man. Semantics. If you were refering that I would count the original officers report as independent then you should have also assumed that I was refering to GATES CNN interview as well as an independent source as I was replying to IFF about the interview NOT the report. Thus making your comment void.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by peter12

Travel outside of the Anglo-Saxon world and you'll see the other side.

Exactly.....Spend a afternoon in Watts or Compton (or is that just myth, i really don't know)

Or spend sometime in a place where you are the minority....i would be suprised if didn't at least experience apprehension..may not be racism...but resistance?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Maybe they were both in the wrong. Gates, for assuming the police were there to harass him because he is black, and the cop, for taking the wrong opportunity to reinforce the laws about disorderly conduct.

Discretion is an important part of being a police officer. Whether or not he was TECHNICALLY correct in arresting Gates, I'll bet both he and his department wish he hadn't.

I'd also say Gates has no moral high ground on which to proclaim racism in his treatment; whether or not his own obvious racism is justified by past history, he still harbors racist attitudes. As soon as you justify racism due to YOUR experience, you implicitly approve racism due to others' experiences.

I can agree with that. I doubt that he was technically correct in arresting him, but I think it's pretty clear that it was regrettable either way.

As for moral high ground, I'd agree that Gates has none. But to me this issue isn't really about his moral character. The fact that he's a respected and well-known Harvard professor just adds to the public relations fiasco here, but it doesn't materially affect the facts of the case. To me there are two issues:
1. The burden of establishing probable cause for entering a residence without permission. (i.e. the race of the person inside should not be sufficient).
2. The question of whether a person can be summarily arrested and detained against their will just for being a jerk.

For the record, I don't doubt that Gates was being a jerk. For all I know he's a jerk all the time! But I don't think that's a crime. And I don't think his frustration was totally unwarranted; I'd be frustrated too.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Are you trying to claim one man's racism is morally different than another man's?

Cowperson

Stop being such a drama queen. Can't you see how silly it is to compare being called a rich white guy with a cadilac to real racism that minorities face? This thread is about a man who was (apparently) arrested because he was black. Did you get arrested in Atlanta for being white too?

Originally Posted by peter12

Travel outside of the Anglo-Saxon world and you'll see the other side.

This thread is about our culture and our part of the world. Last time I checked, Harvard was in the USandA. In our culture, being a white male is as easy as it gets.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Or the guy that refuses to accept that Kipper's play has declined. Sorry, couldn't resist. I do agree with you, Azure, et al 100% here, especially with Azure's point that of all the people involved, Obama is the biggest idiot.

Oh Vlad...this year is the big test to see who is truly right on that point...can't wait to prove you wrong!

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Good God man. Semantics. If you were refering that I would count the original officers report as independent then you should have also assumed that I was refering to GATES CNN interview as well as an independent source as I was replying to IFF about the interview NOT the report. Thus making your comment void.

Well, maybe what we can agree on right now is that there is a complete absence of independent reports? So in the meantime we have to use what we can--and given that there are certain facts that both sides agree on, and others that they don't--is it fair to use as a starting point the things upon which everyone agrees?

[mykalberta]

Not to make fun, but does that remind anyone else of that part in Harold and Kumar where the one guy got arrested.

I dont have time to read 12 pages but I assume they sued the police department.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Good God man. Semantics.

Not trying to be a weenie.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

If you were refering that I would count the original officers report as independent then you should have also assumed that I was refering to GATES CNN interview as well as an independent source as I was replying to IFF about the interview NOT the report.

I was pointing out that you had implied the police report is an independant source.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Thus making your comment void.

Void? Perhaps 'moot' would be a better term.

Damn, my natural weeniedom is too powerful for me to control!

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Exactly.....Spend a afternoon in Watts or Compton (or is that just myth, i really don't know)

Or spend sometime in a place where you are the minority....i would be suprised if didn't at least experience apprehension..may not be racism...but resistance?

I've been in quite a few American cities and gone through predominantly "black" neighbourhoods. I've been sworn at, refused service at stores etc... I don't really care, but it was still racist.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by troutman

My good friend at UBC was half-black. We often drove to California or Washington State for holidays. When I crossed the border with him, we were always brought inside, and our car was torn apart. This never happened when I crosssed with white friends. My friend would bite his tongue, but I can only imagine the rage/frustration/sadness he must have felt.

When people deal with that their whole lives, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to assume that their race is a factor in being accused of breaking and entering while standing in their own living room. I don't think it's crazy for a person in that situation to get upset, or even "disorderly." It's wrong for us to say who was right or wrong based on the limited information we have, but I just don't see how white people with even a hint of self-awareness can judge Gates or anyone else in his situation.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Gozer

And I'm saying that I'm not corrupt, lazy, or a liar (for the sake of argument) but if I was the officer in this situation I would tell my half of a story through a certain, perfectly natural, distortion.

What facts do I cling to in my memory, or what was I trying to communicate when I said that.

"I was trying to give him my name, but first I was just asking him to calm down so we wouldn't have to yell" and "I asked him five times for his name and he didn't provide it" are both factual and honest reports and neither one really tells the story.

Ok, nose picker, I am done with you. For some reason you are trying to pick a fight where there isn't one, arguing semantics and somehow getting confused with what I said in my posts.

If you had gone back to when I agreed that what I posted were not infact facts, you would realize that you are arguing for no reason.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Stop being such a drama queen. Can't you see how silly it is to compare being called a rich white guy with a cadilac to real racism that minorities face? This thread is about a man who was (apparently) arrested because he was black. Did you get arrested in Atlanta for being white too?


This thread is about our culture and our part of the world. Last time I checked, Harvard was in the USandA. In our culture, being a white male is as easy as it gets.

What is a minority anyway? Morally we are all the same, or do you disagree?

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by peter12

What is a minority anyway? Morally we are all the same, or do you disagree?

Morally? What the hell does morality have to do with this? I'm talking about real life here kiddo. Are you Stephen Colbert!? It must be so nice not to see race!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Well, maybe what we can agree on right now is that there is a complete absence of independent reports? So in the meantime we have to use what we can--and given that there are certain facts that both sides agree on, and others that they don't--is it fair to use as a starting point the things upon which everyone agrees?

True. As it appears, I am willing to lend more weight to the officers report than you and you are willing to lend more weight to GATES interview. We will reserve judgment until independent evidence can be published.

I will still disagree with you though about the officer entering the home and his authority to do so.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ok, nose picker, I am done with you.

Why do you have to drag Gozer's nose picking into this? He's sensitive about that, you know!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Not trying to be a weenie.



I was pointing out that you had implied the police report is an independant source.

Which I didn't. You assumed that I did.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

1. The burden of establishing probable cause for entering a residence without permission. (i.e. the race of the person inside should not be sufficient).

The race of the person only comes into play here, because a resident reported to police a possible break in, and describe the men as "black" - The reason the resident reported a possible break in was because these two men were trying to bust open the door...that is ""a reasonable amount of suspicion" which is probable cause for the officer to investigate..again the use of the term "black" persons was for description purposes only...The officer saw as stated in the report a "black" man in the house...he has probable cause to investigate this and determine if the man lives at the home...there was NO reason for Gates to start spewing his garbage at the officer, show your ID, explain your door was jammed...case closed...but according to the police report he went off the handle....I have no problem with the charges being dropped...hopefully next time Gates will handle this situation better...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Morally? What the hell does morality have to do with this? I'm talking about real life here kiddo. Are you Stephen Colbert!? It must be so nice not to see race!

I have no problems with race. I don't "see it" to the greatest extent possible. I'm actually capable of looking at these issues in a grown-up matter.

Racism is a moral issue. We are all racists, thus we all have to deal with the issue in the same way. Racism is never acceptable, but an examination from a systemic or social perspective is stupid. It's okay if that's all you have experienced, I mean, observing some other guys' failure to get into a club must have been a pretty insightful experience, but really...

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

True. As it appears, I am willing to lend more weight to the officers report than you and you are willing to lend more weight to GATES interview. We will resever judgment until independent evidence can be published.

I will still disagree with you though about the officer entering the home and his authority to do so.

I was shocked at the differences between the two, actually. So yeah, I think independent accounts would be very valuable.

As for the officer entering the home, we can both have our opinions, but my guess is that there is a right or wrong answer to that question, and we just don't know it yet. If I come across something I'll post it, regardless of who it proves right.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Which I didn't. You assumed that I did.

Actually, I only asked if it did.

Regardless, I think we all agree that both parties could have handled the situation better. And no one, as far as I can tell, considers this racial profiling.