The Big Switch (PC -> Mac)

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by McG

this is a great thread and i never thought that i would post in it...but here goes.

I am a die hard PC guy...and that isn't going to change any time soon. it is just the way that it is. however...given this approach, i have generally not spent any time following affaires d'apple. and now i am looking for a little cp wisdom. truthfully, i'm embarrassed to be asking such ridiculous apple questions because i live and breathe on the pc platform. in fact...i have been a "friends and family" helpdesk for years and years which i am hoping to move away from.

My 17 year old is starting university in the fall. We all know about apples on campus and the "cool thing" but this is about functionality. she doesn't need to be a star on the computer...she just needs the darn thing to work. so, for her...assuming portability, what does she really need? if i said 15" laptop to start...i see quite a few options. what would a student need? i can see that i need to buy mac office it looks like...but what other software does a guy need out of the gate? any recommendations?

also, can this laptop coexist on my home network? i have a windows home server that is awesome...and of course the other computers connect to that. but will the apple? will it play xvid/.avi files?

now the tricky part. i have about 3 seniors all waiting for what i find out about the apple for my daughter. i get the fact that apples are super duper easy to work with especially if you don't need all of the funky stuff that gives folk grief on windows. so, would the same specs apply for the seniors as the student's gear? secondly, am i about to relinquish my role as friends and family helpdesk support? i am quite reluctant to help acquire a platform that i can't support over the phone. if anyone has any seniors stories that they are able to share...i am most interested. the seniors in particular are limited in what they want to do...its the usual basic stuff...email, pictures, browsing, the occasional computer game, and banking...the usual stuff. my gut tells me that the apple is right in that niche spot. am i right?

thanks to everyone...and very sorry for jumping in.

The mac seems kind of expensive to just do the basic surfing/e-mailing/pictures/banking stuff.

Hell, I was looking at netbooks today and you can do all that on a computer that costs less than 400 bucks, which is about a thousand bucks cheaper than the cheapest mac. Of course it's pretty damn small and the oldsters don't like small, so maybe not.

Old people and computer newbs are prone to getting every virus known to man on their computer, so that may be another check mark on the Mac side.

Moving away from the friends/family helpdesk is probably a good thing, so it might be good for them to get a mac and not pester you any more.

I might be repeating myself here in this thread, but... I "started" on computers and the internet 15 years ago on an Apple computer. I switched to a PC when my dad bought me one a couple years later and it was nothing for me to change. After being on a PC for 13 years I went back to Mac and again and there wasn't much of a transition. They all do the same damn thing. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

It reminds me of some comedian I saw years ago on the television. He said something like this:

"Coke and Pepsi spend billions on advertising, on being different, yapping about how great they are and how crappy the other guy is. You've seen a million ads. Then you are in a restaurant and the waitress asks you what you want to drink and you say "Pepsi" and she says "we only have Coke" and you wave your hand and say "ah, whatever,Coke then" and you go back to talking to your friends and all that effort that Coke and Pepsi made to get you on their side is pointless."

[llama64]

Originally Posted by McG

this is a great thread and i never thought that i would post in it...but here goes.

I am a die hard PC guy...and that isn't going to change any time soon. it is just the way that it is. however...given this approach, i have generally not spent any time following affaires d'apple. and now i am looking for a little cp wisdom. truthfully, i'm embarrassed to be asking such ridiculous apple questions because i live and breathe on the pc platform. in fact...i have been a "friends and family" helpdesk for years and years which i am hoping to move away from.

My 17 year old is starting university in the fall. We all know about apples on campus and the "cool thing" but this is about functionality. she doesn't need to be a star on the computer...she just needs the darn thing to work. so, for her...assuming portability, what does she really need? if i said 15" laptop to start...i see quite a few options. what would a student need? i can see that i need to buy mac office it looks like...but what other software does a guy need out of the gate? any recommendations?

also, can this laptop coexist on my home network? i have a windows home server that is awesome...and of course the other computers connect to that. but will the apple? will it play xvid/.avi files?

now the tricky part. i have about 3 seniors all waiting for what i find out about the apple for my daughter. i get the fact that apples are super duper easy to work with especially if you don't need all of the funky stuff that gives folk grief on windows. so, would the same specs apply for the seniors as the student's gear? secondly, am i about to relinquish my role as friends and family helpdesk support? i am quite reluctant to help acquire a platform that i can't support over the phone. if anyone has any seniors stories that they are able to share...i am most interested. the seniors in particular are limited in what they want to do...its the usual basic stuff...email, pictures, browsing, the occasional computer game, and banking...the usual stuff. my gut tells me that the apple is right in that niche spot. am i right?

thanks to everyone...and very sorry for jumping in.

To just about every question: yes.

For a student, Office is probably a good bet. If the user is savvy, they can get away with iWork, but Office is usually a must. As to hardware, I'd suggest a 13.3" display. Even the cheapest white Macbook will suit everything a student needs in a laptop and I can vouch that it's a very portable size. I have the 15" Macbook Pro and find it's a bit cumbersome to lug around despite being fairly lean for it's size.

OS X can natively support communications and file sharing on a Windows based network. It just needs to be enabled in the sharing settings (SMB). This shouldn't be a problem and there are tons of guides out there if you do run into a configuration issue.

For playback of Window's based video formats you only need to install Flip4Mac:
- http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/flip4mac.mspx
- (also, Perian won't hurt: http://perian.org/)
I'm not sure if you can plug the media player directly into the home server, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a guide on the internet tailored to do just that.

For seniors: well, I'm my families resident "tech guy" so no matter what I'm supporting whatever they end up buying. I can say that so far I'm tired of supporting XP based machines and am pushing Apple or Windows 7 onto them (when it comes out). With Apple, chances are you won't be dealing with messy ad-ware/spyware problems which is 90% of what I deal with in my family. What you will deal with is usability and migration problems if they are used to Windows. If that will be a problem, I'd suggest looking into Windows 7 as it finally makes things a lot easier on us home techies. So far this year I've rebuilt 2 XP machines and done virus/malware cleans on a routine basis. My original Macbook went 1.5 years without a single reformat and barely any maintenance and my Pro is doing just fine as well. Supporting OS X shouldn't be a huge issue, time wise. (Also, no virus scanner is required on OS X for the time being)

To quell any fears, if your daughter gets a Mac, you will have no compatibilities problems. And it works on any platform that will be required at the school.

Feel free to PM me any questions if you want to know anything specific.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

The only major issue I have found since being a Mac, is that MLS does not run on anything buy Internet Explorer. As a realtor, this is a major pain. This is the main reason I just bought a new mac which will allow me to run windows and IE when I need to. My old Mac was pre-this ability.

Just out of curiosity, what part of MLS doesn't run in Firefox? Is there a different part of their website for realtors that requires IE?

I use MLS just about every day, but just the front end. It works fine in Firefox 3.5.

And for the record as a Web Developer, any site that requires a specific browser has incredibly lazy people working on it...

[FanIn80]

Just want to add the education pricing on right now. She can get a white 13" MacBook for $1099, and a free 8GB iPod Touch... or go a step up and get the aluminum 13" MacBook Pro for $1299 with the same free 8GB iPod Touch.

Personally, I'm sure the white MacBook will more than suffice. Having said that, though, the aluminum MacBook Pro is well worth the extra $200.

White MacBook ($1099)
Aluminum MacBook Pro ($1299)
iPod Touch (Free)

Education Pricing

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by llama64

For seniors: well, I'm my families resident "tech guy" so no matter what I'm supporting whatever they end up buying. I can say that so far I'm tired of supporting XP based machines and am pushing Apple or Windows 7 onto them (when it comes out). With Apple, chances are you won't be dealing with messy ad-ware/spyware problems which is 90% of what I deal with in my family. What you will deal with is usability and migration problems if they are used to Windows. If that will be a problem, I'd suggest looking into Windows 7 as it finally makes things a lot easier on us home techies. So far this year I've rebuilt 2 XP machines and done virus/malware cleans on a routine basis. My original Macbook went 1.5 years without a single reformat and barely any maintenance and my Pro is doing just fine as well. Supporting OS X shouldn't be a huge issue, time wise. (Also, no virus scanner is required on OS X for the time being)

i haven't had my dad or my brother and his wife call me for tech help once i cleaned everything up on their machines and installed Firefox, while also removing any shortcuts to IE. if you have friends and family who are useless on computers and you want to save yourself some headaches, that simple switch will save you repeatedly. Firefox is just such a better designed browser than IE, never had any malware/spyware issues with it, especially with Adblock Plus installed

[octothorp]

My wife's grandfather bought a Mac laptop about four years ago, and it was the first computer he ever owned. She helped him set it up initially, but maybe once in those four years he's called to ask for help with something. He basically uses it for email and internet and some simple word-document editing. He's also become the most vocal Apple advocate I know, even though he doesn't really understand or care about the technology. Now, the catch there is that he made the decision to buy a Mac; nobody forced it on him, he just read through his consumer reports magazine, and made up his mind that he wanted a Mac. My parents, on the other hand, are pretty close to fitting that same niche except that they've been using PCs for the last fifteen years, and are so resistant to change that I know they'd have a lot of trouble just because they'd be resisting it.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

i haven't had my dad or my brother and his wife call me for tech help once i cleaned everything up on their machines and installed Firefox, while also removing any shortcuts to IE. if you have friends and family who are useless on computers and you want to save yourself some headaches, that simple switch will save you repeatedly. Firefox is just such a better designed browser than IE, never had any malware/spyware issues with it, especially with Adblock Plus installed

Trust me, I've done all that.

They use Firefox. They also have Adblock and Windows Defender installed. That doesn't protect them from my sisters deciding to download movies from Limewire and infesting their computer with hundreds of trojans and malware that can't be cleaned.

And this is after me giving specific guidelines on what not to do, namely, if it's illegal, DON'T DO IT. And then my mother goes ahead and drops 100$ on that Norton Antivirus which promptly destroys her system even worse then it was before. Also doesn't help that Windows XP "helpfully" allows every program to install a "start on startup" option that is not visible outside of "MSCONFIG". So when I do visit them, I have to fire that utility up and clean out all the ridiculous crap they managed to install - most of which was installed without their knowing.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by McG

this is a great thread and i never thought that i would post in it...but here goes.

I am a die hard PC guy...and that isn't going to change any time soon. it is just the way that it is. however...given this approach, i have generally not spent any time following affaires d'apple. and now i am looking for a little cp wisdom. truthfully, i'm embarrassed to be asking such ridiculous apple questions because i live and breathe on the pc platform. in fact...i have been a "friends and family" helpdesk for years and years which i am hoping to move away from.

My 17 year old is starting university in the fall. We all know about apples on campus and the "cool thing" but this is about functionality. she doesn't need to be a star on the computer...she just needs the darn thing to work. so, for her...assuming portability, what does she really need? if i said 15" laptop to start...i see quite a few options. what would a student need? i can see that i need to buy mac office it looks like...but what other software does a guy need out of the gate? any recommendations?

also, can this laptop coexist on my home network? i have a windows home server that is awesome...and of course the other computers connect to that. but will the apple? will it play xvid/.avi files?

now the tricky part. i have about 3 seniors all waiting for what i find out about the apple for my daughter. i get the fact that apples are super duper easy to work with especially if you don't need all of the funky stuff that gives folk grief on windows. so, would the same specs apply for the seniors as the student's gear? secondly, am i about to relinquish my role as friends and family helpdesk support? i am quite reluctant to help acquire a platform that i can't support over the phone. if anyone has any seniors stories that they are able to share...i am most interested. the seniors in particular are limited in what they want to do...its the usual basic stuff...email, pictures, browsing, the occasional computer game, and banking...the usual stuff. my gut tells me that the apple is right in that niche spot. am i right?

thanks to everyone...and very sorry for jumping in.

Fanin80 nailed it ... your daughter qualifies for education pricing. Seeing as Apple products very rarely ever go on sale this is a great thing. I actually convinced my coworker to buy a 13" macbook pro for $1300 yesterday using the education discount. The $1100 model is very solid too ... my coworker just thought the aluminum casing and speed bump was worth $200 (I agree).

I probably won't offer any real insight that hasn't been dealt yet, but here goes:

You probably don't need the 15" model ... the 13" in my eyes are more ideal for campus living as you'll be hauling it around all the time. Might as well save some $ if you can.

Software shouldn't be a huge deal. It comes with most everything she'll need, but you're right, you'll need an office suite of some kind. You can get Office for Mac at a reduced rate (again, education discounts), but I'd recommend looking into iWork. It costs about $70 and I have yet to encounter a compatibility problem yet. I know some CP users have had issues with it in the past, but I've been running it here at work (I'm the only mac in the whole building) and I have yet to run into a problem.

As far as compatibility goes for media (or anything) I had the same concern when I made the switch. Staff at the UofC can get a copy of Windows XP for $5, so upon delivery of my mac I walked over and bought a copy of it. I intended to install it once I hit that wall that the mac couldn't handle. It's still in my drawer a year later as I haven't needed it yet.

I recommend your daughter download a media player called VLC ... I find it will play damn near anything.

Don't worry about your role with IT support. You're a computer guy and in my experience elementary knowledge of how to do a google search is the most important part. I have yet to run into a problem that google hasn't solved (and believe me, when you first make the switch, you have a ton of "how the hell do I do xxxx?" problems). I'm currently planting the seed in my parents minds to get a mac. The number of issues they have with their pc is incredible and I'm getting tired of dealing with those issues over the phone simply because I'm just not that good at that kind of thing. I'm NOT saying that Apples don't get problems because they do, but in my experience the problems are less intense and daunting.

Don't forget ... CP is your best friend for Apple stuff. I learned almost everything from posters here.

[Pastiche]

My 17 year old is starting university in the fall. We all know about apples on campus and the "cool thing" but this is about functionality. she doesn't need to be a star on the computer...she just needs the darn thing to work. so, for her...assuming portability, what does she really need? if i said 15" laptop to start...i see quite a few options. what would a student need? i can see that i need to buy mac office it looks like...but what other software does a guy need out of the gate? any recommendations?

If you know what you're doing Macs simply don't justify the price premium over PCs.

I can't talk netbooks up enough.

The Asus line is $400 or less and will do everything the vast majority of all Mac users use their laptops for.

Perfect for students, infact way better for students than a heavy expensive macbook.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by llama64

Just out of curiosity, what part of MLS doesn't run in Firefox? Is there a different part of their website for realtors that requires IE?

I use MLS just about every day, but just the front end. It works fine in Firefox 3.5.

And for the record as a Web Developer, any site that requires a specific browser has incredibly lazy people working on it...

Yeah, it's the realtor specific site that need IE. It does much more then the front end MLS.
Agreed about the lazy people, how can they not make it work with Firefox?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Just want to add the education pricing on right now. She can get a white 13" MacBook for $1099, and a free 8GB iPod Touch... or go a step up and get the aluminum 13" MacBook Pro for $1299 with the same free 8GB iPod Touch.

Personally, I'm sure the white MacBook will more than suffice. Having said that, though, the aluminum MacBook Pro is well worth the extra $200.

White MacBook ($1099)
Aluminum MacBook Pro ($1299)
iPod Touch (Free)

Education Pricing

Refurbished pricing is great now too. The last gen of aluminum macbooks are no longer available in stores and the refurbished ones are good deals.
Mine was $1250, has the 2.4ghz processor and an upgraded 250gig HD.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not really griping about the price of the computer or the quality, but the price of the accessories. This monitor adapter is practically nothing and it costs 30 dollars. It just seems ridiculous to me. They damn near give this kind of thing away with PCs and it is a lot more robust than the Mac trinkets.

I've got a Dell laptop for work and I could run the power cord over with a bus and I think it would still work. I nearly ran over the end of my Mac power cord with my chair today and probably would have had to replace the thing for a hundred bucks.

Bla bla bla -- doesn't anyone make knockoffs of this Mac stuff?

There's an article about this very issue on Ars Technica today.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...d-adapters.ars

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

If you know what you're doing Macs simply don't justify the price premium over PCs.

I can't talk netbooks up enough.

The Asus line is $400 or less and will do everything the vast majority of all Mac users use their laptops for.

Perfect for students, infact way better for students than a heavy expensive macbook.

I can't back this up with a source just yet (edit: http://foxyurl.com/pnk), but a recently read somewhere that only 40% of netbook users are happy with their purchase. That is not encouraging.
edit: Looks like when it comes to laptops, netbooks are generally rated 40% lower when it comes to satisfaction.

[Pastiche]

I would bet that less than 40% of laptop users are happy with their laptop.

For a student a 1000 series EEE pc is freaking great. Good keyboard, nice display, ultraportable, there's no real advantages a macbook or full-sized laptop have if you're using it to take notes in class, write an essay in the library, use wireless for your research.

Oh and you save $1000 bucks.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Russic

I can't back this up with a source just yet (edit: http://foxyurl.com/pnk), but a recently read somewhere that only 40% of netbook users are happy with their purchase. That is not encouraging.
edit: Looks like when it comes to laptops, netbooks are generally rated 40% lower when it comes to satisfaction.

Well, that metric isn't really measuring satisfaction.

It is looking at online forums/blogs/etc and measuring "advocacy" i.e. are there lots of posts raving about net books or are there lots of posts negative about netbooks.

I would agree that there is probably a correlation but the relatively small market share of netbooks as well as the relative "newness" of netbooks might skew those results to the negative.

The results of the social media analysis indicate that there is a lot of opportunity for improvement across the board for Netbook products. Netbook manufacturers also face a significant challenge with consumers whose expectations are based on years of desktop pc usage.

The last line is the telling one. If people bought a netbook and expected it to do everything their desktop does, they are mistaken. Netbooks can't yet play HD content; the next iteration of processor is supposed to address this, but if people try it they are going to be disappointed to see a slideshow. I'm guessing they they will also be unhappy with some of the more extreme flash and/or java apps. Or maybe they bought a machine that had Vista, and even MS has agreed Vista doesn't work on Netbooks. The tricky thing is the hardware manufacturers want to develop this new market, not take away from their laptop market.

Point being, hardware and software manufacturers are still figuring out the netbook market, and the general population's expectations appear to be misguided. That will change as the market matures. Sonic/Rio had the portable MP3 market first before Apple figured it out better. I can see the same thing happening here, eventually.

[Barnes]

My next computer is probably going to be a Hackintosh Dell Mini or a Hackintosh Asus Clamshell.

I like the idea of netbooks.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Well, that metric isn't really measuring satisfaction.

It is looking at online forums/blogs/etc and measuring "advocacy" i.e. are there lots of posts raving about net books or are there lots of posts negative about netbooks.

I would agree that there is probably a correlation but the relatively small market share of netbooks as well as the relative "newness" of netbooks might skew those results to the negative.



The last line is the telling one. If people bought a netbook and expected it to do everything their desktop does, they are mistaken. Netbooks can't yet play HD content; the next iteration of processor is supposed to address this, but if people try it they are going to be disappointed to see a slideshow. I'm guessing they they will also be unhappy with some of the more extreme flash and/or java apps. Or maybe they bought a machine that had Vista, and even MS has agreed Vista doesn't work on Netbooks. The tricky thing is the hardware manufacturers want to develop this new market, not take away from their laptop market.

Point being, hardware and software manufacturers are still figuring out the netbook market, and the general population's expectations appear to be misguided. That will change as the market matures. Sonic/Rio had the portable MP3 market first before Apple figured it out better. I can see the same thing happening here, eventually.

I do definitely agree ... a big problem is that people are uneducated when it comes to netbooks and think they should do more than they actually can. All I'm saying is that unless I was using my laptop for extremely basic functions I wouldn't look at a netbook.

I suppose it boils down to how important power is to the user. If all you'll be doing is hammering out essays and emails then perhaps a netbook would be a great investment. Beyond that though most university students I know find that the power is an important factor in buying a computer.

[FanIn80]

Unsatisfactory netbooks: Apple to the rescue?

Apple to Release Subsidized Tablet Through Verizon Later This Year?
The Street's Scott Moritz reports that Apple is planning to release its long-rumored tablet computer "in time for the holidays" later this year. While Apple is reportedly still deciding on a sales model for the new device, Moritz's source reports that initial plans include subsidies from Verizon in order to lock in users for multi-year wireless data contracts while bringing down the upfront cost to consumers for the device, which is expected to carry a premium price tag.

Moritz's report of a premium price tag echoes comments made as recently as yesterday by Apple executives claiming that Apple can not deliver a netbook or low-end notebook at the $399 or $499 price point currently offered by others that still maintains a satisfactory user experience. Apple's tablet has been seen by many as Apple's revolutionary answer to those usability issues, and the Verizon subsidy is seen as a mechanism to address the upfront cost issue. The subsidy would almost certainly have to be considerably smaller than those seen for smartphones, however, as data-only wireless plans do not command the same monthly fees as the combined voice-and-data plans used on the iPhone.

...and before anyone jumps up and down over a monthly contract fee... unlimited data plans in the US run at about $20/mo, and $30/mo in Canada.

You have to pay that much nowadays, if you want to add mobile data to an existing netbook (usb mobile data stick with monthly contract), so there should be no concerns with doing it on an Apple netbook. For those of you who are more than happy to save your $20-$30 and do without internet access while you're in between wifi hotspots, I'm sure there will also be a non-subsidized pricepoint.

(if this rumour is even accurate)

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Yeah, it's the realtor specific site that need IE. It does much more then the front end MLS.
Agreed about the lazy people, how can they not make it work with Firefox?

You must be talking about MLXchange....?

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by fotze

I had my first crash the onther night, the little spinning rainbow circle. There is no control alt delete that I am aware of, I had to shut it all down, is there a way to close out a program?

Finder Menu > Force Quit

Keys: Cmd > Option > Esc

Right Click on the apps dock icon, Force Quit.