Visa Restriction Introduced for Czech Rep and Mexico

[troutman]

The poll questions are loaded.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Knalus

My biggest problem with using the Visa system to solve this problem is that it targets (and punishes) everyone, not just the refugee claimants. I don't think that's fair, either.

True. But isn't that how the world usualy works? The minority trouble makers impose the law on the majority of law abiding citizens? Most Canadians are not criminals, yet we have a criminal code with hundreds of laws saying people can't do bad things. Provincial laws, municipals laws.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Glenflame

You are way smarter than most stupid people at CP.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by troutman

The poll questions are loaded.

They were suppose to be longer but the site only allows for 100 characters. I guess it could have been just do you agree or not. Really not that big of a deal though. Just vote, it is your democratic duty.

[hockeycop]

Looks like Jason Kenney IS looking at other ways to combat this issue. Some of you love to hate him, and I am sure parts of this plan will make you hate him even more. That being said, if expanding officer powers at the port of entry and inland and at consular offices can aid in removing a visa requirement, it's hard to argue against.

Minister calls for overhaul of Canada's refugee system Ottawa must process asylum claims faster, Kenney says in defence of new visa rules

CAMPBELL CLARK

Canada needs a refugee-claims system that will quickly turn away those who falsely claim persecution to take advantage of the country's generosity, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney says.
Imposing visa restrictions on Czechs and Mexicans was necessary to stem a rising flow of claimants, he said, but what is really needed is an asylum system that accepts or rejects refugees quickly - and he indicated he is working on a reform proposal: "Stay tuned," he said. The decision to introduce a visa requirement was met by howls of protest, with the Czechs recalling their ambassador in protest and Mexico also stating its unhappiness.
For Mr. Kenney, it wouldn't be necessary to impose visa restrictions to stem the flow of asylum-seekers if false claimants knew before coming that their cases would be heard swiftly and they would be returned home immediately after a decision was made.
"This does underscore the need to reform our asylum system so that it ensures that real victims of persecution get swift relief and protection in Canada, and that economic migrants seeking to abuse our generosity are shown to the door quickly," he said.
Although he would not say precisely what reforms he has in mind, the government is studying changes made by Britain in 2004.
It is considering borrowing ideas like giving immigration officers the first decision on refugee claims rather than a tribunal, reducing layers of appeals, and fast-tracking claims from countries that are generally considered safe in an effort to send home rejected claimants sooner.
Ottawa placed the restrictions on citizens of Mexico and the Czech Republic to counter a rising number of travellers who claimed refugee status in Canada rather than return home.
In the first three months of 2009, 3,648 Mexicans and 653 Czechs claimed refugee status after arriving in Canada - many of the Czechs are said to be from that country's Roma minority.
Airlines and tour operators from both countries complained that tourists scheduled to come in the next week will be stranded; Mr. Kenney argued that giving warning could have caused a "rush for the border."
The Czechs asked the 27-country European Union to retaliate by requiring visitors' visas from Canadians.
Mexico, though less vocal, fumed that 250,000 Mexican tourists will be inconvenienced because some have taken advantage of slow response times in Canada's decisions on who can stay as a refugee.
"When we raise with our partners in foreign countries the issue of false asylum claims, or large flows like we've seen from Mexico and Czech Republic, they turn the discussion back on us, and say, 'Your system is inviting this kind of abuse. And you need to fix your system,' " Mr. Kenney said.
He wouldn't say what he has in mind to speed up the system, but noted Britain's 2004 changes as an "interesting reference point."
And the government here is considering borrowing other ideas, including giving immigration officers the first decision on a claim, rather than the tribunal, the Immigration and Refugee Board, that now hears the case first. Under such a reform, the IRB, or its replacement, would then hear appeals of the officer's decision.
In Britain, the government restricted the right to appeal the immigration tribunal's decision to the courts to strict questions of law - a move that, if copied here, would almost certainly raise an outcry from refugee advocates and immigration lawyers.
The IRB, staffed by political appointees and long rife with political patronage, has historically seen its decisions overturned at a high rate by the Federal Court.
Mr. Kenney declined to say if he will consider limiting appeals to the Federal Court of Canada, but said any change would have to respect "due process, natural justice, and the Charter of Rights. "It's not lost on economic migrants who want to jump the queue that we have a system that's fairly easy to abuse. And where people can settle in Canada, sometimes for several years, with a mixture of a work permit and/or social benefits, and if they're determined to, they can game our system and abuse our generosity," he said.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by troutman

The poll questions are loaded.

They are, a bit--though I sense, not deliberately so. Perhaps the Czech visa should be included as a separate question?

Also, looking more closely at the numbers--the 9400 refugee claimants from Mexico is over a four year period, so it's even fewer people than I thought. The Czech number--about 3000 since 2007--is smaller, but not by as much as I initially thought just glancing at the numbers.

Combined, it's a smidge less than a quarter of all refugee claimants. Not a huge number by any stretch of the imagination. Also, it's probably unfair to as a blanket rule claim that since these are "Western Democracies" their claims are likely to be illegitimate. Something like 40% of the Czech applicants are eventually approved--that's pretty substantial. For the others, a system is already in place to return them to their home countries. As for Mexico, significant human rights abuses have taken place there. Canada has a track record of ignoring this, but that doesn't make it any less true:
http://www.ccrweb.ca/eng/media/press.../12april07.htm

According to Minister Kenney, Roma peoples in the CR don't face "persecution." They face "discrimination." This sort of hair-splitting is what turns politics into empty sophistry. When I said Kenney was "stupid"--that was wrong. I should have been more clear. Kenney is in over his head--his hamhanded response to this issue clearly demonstrates that he'd be better suited to another, less sensitive portfolio, where he might be less apt to create enemies abroad when his missteps blow up in his face.

We have a reputation as a compassionate nation. This is a good thing; let's not screw it up.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by hockeycop

Looks like Jason Kenney IS looking at other ways to combat this issue. Some of you love to hate him, and I am sure parts of this plan will make you hate him even more. That being said, if expanding officer powers at the port of entry and inland and at consular offices can aid in removing a visa requirement, it's hard to argue against.

[/color]

Looks to me like he's already back-pedaling.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

They are, a bit--though I sense, not deliberately so. Perhaps the Czech visa should be included as a separate question?

Also, looking more closely at the numbers--the 9400 refugee claimants from Mexico is over a four year period, so it's even fewer people than I thought. The Czech number--about 3000 since 2007--is smaller, but not by as much as I initially thought just glancing at the numbers.

Combined, it's a smidge less than a quarter of all refugee claimants. Not a huge number by any stretch of the imagination. Also, it's probably unfair to as a blanket rule claim that since these are "Western Democracies" their claims are likely to be illegitimate. Something like 40% of the Czech applicants are eventually approved--that's pretty substantial. For the others, a system is already in place to return them to their home countries. As for Mexico, significant human rights abuses have taken place there. Canada has a track record of ignoring this, but that doesn't make it any less true:
http://www.ccrweb.ca/eng/media/press.../12april07.htm

According to Minister Kenney, Roma peoples in the CR don't face "persecution." They face "discrimination." This sort of hair-splitting is what turns politics into empty sophistry. When I said Kenney was "stupid"--that was wrong. I should have been more clear. Kenney is in over his head--his hamhanded response to this issue clearly demonstrates that he'd be better suited to another, less sensitive portfolio, where he might be less apt to create enemies abroad when his missteps blow up in his face.

We have a reputation as a compassionate nation. This is a good thing; let's not screw it up.

The 9400 is not over a 4 year period. It is one year, 2007 numbers I believe. Edit: Must be 2008 numbers.

And if a moderator feels like adding the Czech question as well, please feel free. I should have had it originally but my primary concern was the Mexican VISA requirement.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Looks to me like he's already back-pedaling.

He is doing anything but back-pedaling. He wants to drastically change how the Refugee system works. That takes parliamentary consent. Something he will not get. This has been his plan all along.

I think IFF has me on ignore because he hasn't answered any of my questions that I have asked him.

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Looks to me like he's already back-pedaling.

I wouldn't say that, but I would agree that he is hearing the message the Canadians and foreign diplomats/govts are sending, and that is to fix the system.

I have a strong feeling that all of this has been in the works for quite sometime.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by hockeycop

I wouldn't say that, but I would agree that he is hearing the message the Canadians and foreign diplomats/govts are sending, and that is to fix the system.

I have a strong feeling that all of this has been in the works for quite sometime.

Anything's possible. If that's the case, he probably should have made it part of his initial public outreach on the issue--rather than starting by trying to score cheap political points among paranoid nativists at the expense of Mexicans and gypsies.

But governments can be a little disorganized sometimes. It's their way.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Also, looking more closely at the numbers--the 9400 refugee claimants from Mexico is over a four year period, so it's even fewer people than I thought. The Czech number--about 3000 since 2007--is smaller, but not by as much as I initially thought just glancing at the numbers.
.

Here are the numbers

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...mporary/27.asp

[Bownesian]

If anyone's interested, Kenney will be on QR77 momentarily to talk about this issue.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

The Czechs are retaliating:

The Czech Republic will press the European Union to impose a visa restriction on all Canadians travelling to its 27 member countries, the country's consul general in Toronto said Wednesday. Richard Krpac said the move is in response to Canada's decision earlier this week to require travellers from the Czech Republic and Mexico to obtain visas.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...c-visa015.html
Can we call this a fiasco yet?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

If anyone's interested, Kenney will be on QR77 momentarily to preach to the chior

fixed

[Bownesian]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

The Czechs are retaliating:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...c-visa015.html
Can we call this a fiasco yet?

I'm not sure about the Czech Republic portion of this story but if you look at the refugee claimant figures for the 2004-2007 period, there has been an increase in the neighbouhood of 50% per year of the number of claimants from Mexico over that period. If you accept the 10000 figure that Kenny gave for the 2008 number, that's another 50% increase - every year for five years. These kinds of increases aren't sustainable, regardless of the portion of the total number.

I think that the problem lays with how generous and open to potential abuse the Canadian system is but the Conservatives would be painted as racist xenophobes if they ever attempted to restrict the system to solve the same problem.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by troutman

fixed

With all do respect troutman, why don't you add something meaning full to the debate rather than your drive by's? As much as I am disagreeing with IFF on this issue, at least he is making an attempt to debate the topic.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

With al do respect troutman, why don't you add something meaning full to the debate rather than your drive by's? As much as I am disagreeing with IFF on this issue, at least he is making an attempt to debate the topic.

No time.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

The Czechs are retaliating:


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/...c-visa015.html
Can we call this a fiasco yet?

Lets wait to see what the EU actually decides to do before we start calling things a fiasco. We can't take any credibility in reports from cbc and loud noises from the Czechs. Of course they are going to do what they can for their people, but in the big picture, they are small fish in the EU pond.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

The Czechs are retaliating

To me, a retaliation is some actual shot, be it a fist, a bullet, a missile, even a some sort of sanction! No... they did the following:

The Czech Republic will press the European Union to impose a visa restriction on all Canadians travelling to its 27 member countries

Good luck with that one Czechs....

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Can we call this a fiasco yet?

Please... this current scenario is exactly what was in place up until the current government tried to lift the restrictions in October of 2007 and found that it wasn't the right move. They have since reinstated the same visa requirements that previously existed. What is the problem with that? They tried but it failed. Give them credit for recognizing the problem that obviously bloomed.