Raptors 2009 offseason thread

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Three way trade shaping up, with Dallas and Toronto getting Memphis on-board. Also a possibility that a fourth team is added (Orlando?).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4314637

Yep it's basically what I explained above. Orlando in is good and means they gain exceptions. Orlando out means all they get is a little capspace--better than nothing but cross your fingers on Orlando biting if you are a Raps fan.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I'm curious how a Bargs/Hedo based offense is going to run, I just can't picture it.

I can (and I don't mean to be negative), but I think Bargs is gonna get lazy this year. He's going to be that perimeter shooter we've all known to love, while Hedo will be the midrange shooter and Bosh be more the inside/midrange shooter. Hopefully I'm way wrong, but I really think Bargs gets lazy.

[pria(kin)16]

Marion deal is done. I like Antoine Wright off the bench, BC fills another need and also gets the MLE back in a deal with Orlando. I really wish they could have found a way to keep Parker, but it looks like he'll be a Cav pretty soon.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by pria(kin)16

Marion deal is done. I like Antoine Wright off the bench, BC fills another need and also gets the MLE back in a deal with Orlando. I really wish they could have found a way to keep Parker, but it looks like he'll be a Cav pretty soon.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

I think Devan George is coming this way too. That is a definate upgrade on our bench: Awright and Dgeorge. We lose Hump but he was way too concerned with looking for his own shot: Kris stick to the post play!

I think A wright is a downgrade from Parker and Dgeorge is a wash for Kapono. Kapono may be the better shooter but George is a better overall player (one who is old and can only spot up shoot, so...what's the diff?).

What is the team shaping up like now?

Bargs, Bosh, Turk, DeRo, Jose bench: Evans, Awright, Douby, Ukic, banks, O'bryant, Delfino, Pops,...something good might come out of that, but I'm not holding my breath.

[bluejays]

I agree with ya Ziggy. BC did a good creative job on this one, and he deserves some credit. When all is said and done though, I think DeRozen will be moving in and out of the starting 5 in exchange for Delfino. Doug Smith wrote today that Nesterovic could possibly returning too, which would be huge for this team considering we don't have a true Centre.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

I think Devan George is coming this way too. That is a definate upgrade on our bench: Awright and Dgeorge. We lose Hump but he was way too concerned with looking for his own shot: Kris stick to the post play!

I think A wright is a downgrade from Parker and Dgeorge is a wash for Kapono. Kapono may be the better shooter but George is a better overall player (one who is old and can only spot up shoot, so...what's the diff?).

What is the team shaping up like now?

Bargs, Bosh, Turk, DeRo, Jose bench: Evans, Awright, Douby, Ukic, banks, O'bryant, Delfino, Pops,...something good might come out of that, but I'm not holding my breath.

Why? The starting five is going to be very competitive. Even with the SG spot split between DD and Delfino. You know this was the "ideal" trade don't you? The Raps had nobody at the wings for the bench and they were going to lose the MLE and LLE. BC swoops in and not only gets serviceable backups but retains the exceptions. Evans and Rasho off the bench is a good backup duo. Very solid defensively. Chuckfino can come in and fire away like he always does. They could very well land Kleiza now or Barnes.

BC has options galore now. Turk gives them a much better starting five and now they will have a solid bench and depth. No need to hold your breath as they will be competitive. Still won't be contenders but hey 2nd round is the goal IMO(just like the Flames).

Heck Wright could be put in as the backup SG and they don't even need to sign Delfino. Wright is a good pickup. He even started a bunch of games for the Mavs this year. Played like 20 minutes a game which is ideal. You don't want DD to be overplayed.

It was already the best trade they could possibly do with Orlando in the mix and it even surpassed my expectations. Well done BC!!!!!!!!!!

[I wanna be like Miikka]

I like the way this lineup looks for this year. Beyond that though I think the Raps are in big trouble, if they keep Bosh all year then the Raps MIGHT make it to the 2nd round but over the summer Bosh is gone for nothing.

Anyone think we should deal Bosh right now? I would think a few teams would be interested, including the Mavericks.

[Da_Chief]

Ive been on trade Bosh idea for far too long, just move the damn guy, you can get a solid package for him. Move him and build around all euros (Andrea, Jose, Hedo) so get 2 more euros to make it all euro starting 5.

[mykalberta]

+1 on the trade Bosh now. Unless you spend to the farm for him he is gone.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by I wanna be like Miikka

I like the way this lineup looks for this year. Beyond that though I think the Raps are in big trouble, if they keep Bosh all year then the Raps MIGHT make it to the 2nd round but over the summer Bosh is gone for nothing.

Anyone think we should deal Bosh right now? I would think a few teams would be interested, including the Mavericks.

I don't. I'm off the opinion that Bosh is what he is and that to judge his value you have to accept that. He is not a guy who is going to score in the clutch, play great defense and lead the team to the promised land. He is a very good 2nd banana type. He will score the points and in a solid defensive system do a decent job.

So you either realize that and get rid of him or you just fill in the gaps. Hedo is a very, very good player. Scores from everywhere and in the clutch, great passer and solid defender. Jose can shoot the lights out. Bargnani's game has gotten better and better and no reason he can't have a inside/outside game and be a super tough matchup.

So I would have looked at any possible deals to move him before this trade but not now. BC is plugging the holes and they are even going to have a bench. They have X factor AB and XX factor DD. Plus they added some much needed toughness and if the truly amazing happened and Delfino, Kleiza and Rasho all enter the fold they will be tough and much better defensively.

Nope you don't trade Bosh now. You wait and see how this turns out.

[I wanna be like Miikka]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I don't. I'm off the opinion that Bosh is what he is and that to judge his value you have to accept that. He is not a guy who is going to score in the clutch, play great defense and lead the team to the promised land. He is a very good 2nd banana type. He will score the points and in a solid defensive system do a decent job.

So you either realize that and get rid of him or you just fill in the gaps. Hedo is a very, very good player. Scores from everywhere and in the clutch, great passer and solid defender. Jose can shoot the lights out. Bargnani's game has gotten better and better and no reason he can't have a inside/outside game and be a super tough matchup.

So I would have looked at any possible deals to move him before this trade but not now. BC is plugging the holes and they are even going to have a bench. They have X factor AB and XX factor DD. Plus they added some much needed toughness and if the truly amazing happened and Delfino, Kleiza and Rasho all enter the fold they will be tough and much better defensively.

Nope you don't trade Bosh now. You wait and see how this turns out.

Yeah I can definitely see that side of it. To me though it is tough watching this season knowing the team might make it to the second round but then next year will be absolute garbage having lost Bosh for nothing. I know he is more of a 2nd option player but I also know that some of the top teams would pay a lot for him as he would push them over the top.

Colangelos hands are tied because he likely won't get a return that warrants losing Bosh this year but if he keeps Bosh he knows the team is in big trouble in 1 year (and the Raps aren't even strong enough to cause serious damage this year).

As I see it, the Raps are a 6-8 seeded team, most likely out in the first round but make it to the second round at best. If BC could somehow find a deal that brought in some great young assets I'd be a fan of sacrificing this year, getting a high pick (assuming the Raps have their 1st) and then having a good young team for years to come. Assuming we had our 1st, if we traded Bosh, next season we would have whatever young assets we got from Bosh, a top 5 or top 10 prospect, DeRozan, Bargnani and then 2 guys with some good experience in Hedo and Calderon. To me I'd rather they sucked this year and built a team that was good for a few years vs. maybe winning a round this year then sucking for a few after that since you get nothing for Bosh.

[Gozer]

The NBA salary cap is expected to drop by 10 or 15% (and the max contract is a function of the cap) so you might see guys like Bosh and Wade sign extensions soon because waiting could cost them a lot of money.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by I wanna be like Miikka

Yeah I can definitely see that side of it. To me though it is tough watching this season knowing the team might make it to the second round but then next year will be absolute garbage having lost Bosh for nothing. I know he is more of a 2nd option player but I also know that some of the top teams would pay a lot for him as he would push them over the top.

Colangelos hands are tied because he likely won't get a return that warrants losing Bosh this year but if he keeps Bosh he knows the team is in big trouble in 1 year (and the Raps aren't even strong enough to cause serious damage this year).

As I see it, the Raps are a 6-8 seeded team, most likely out in the first round but make it to the second round at best. If BC could somehow find a deal that brought in some great young assets I'd be a fan of sacrificing this year, getting a high pick (assuming the Raps have their 1st) and then having a good young team for years to come. Assuming we had our 1st, if we traded Bosh, next season we would have whatever young assets we got from Bosh, a top 5 or top 10 prospect, DeRozan, Bargnani and then 2 guys with some good experience in Hedo and Calderon. To me I'd rather they sucked this year and built a team that was good for a few years vs. maybe winning a round this year then sucking for a few after that since you get nothing for Bosh.

Bosh has to throw away a ton of money to leave. And if they do a S&T they will get a good return. Plus if they only have to plug in a PF to be a good team they will have the cash to do so. If Bosh stays it will be because of the moves BC has made and them becoming a good team. It's win/win for the Raps. Having a very good GM makes all the difference. Very nice to be a fan of the Raps and the Flames these days. You know that the guy at the top really knows what he is doing and can wheel and deal with the best of them. If it don't work one year then they just go out and retool and try again. BC's hands aren't tied at all because he can manuver bigtime--I mean look at this trade--we aren't talking some dufus for dufus move. This is a super complicated four team, multiple player, cash, exemptions and everything else under the sun in one deal. Amazing stuff(you know like landing the best dang free agent superstar dman out there).

[Gozer]

Sutter is twice the GM Coangelo is, having some capologist run this trade through a spreadsheet isn't that complicated for a multi-million dollar franchise.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Sutter is twice the GM Coangelo is, having some capologist run this trade through a spreadsheet isn't that complicated for a multi-million dollar franchise.

There was a heck of a lot more to this trade than accounting. Four GM's in agreement-that alone is way beyond the norm. Exceptions given and preserved. On top of just the exceptions gained one good pickup and a serviceable one. Both on short term deals so he can make moves next year as well. BC has pulled off a lot of trades in the NBA with Phoenix and with the Raps. Not sure why you choose to knock down his perfomance especially on a day where Raps fans are delirious with joy.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Not sure why you choose to knock down his perfomance especially on a day where Raps fans are delirious with joy.

I just don't think Coangelo is that great of a GM, look at the awful excuse for a team he put on the floor last year - riddled with weaknesses and virtually no strengths.

I'm a Raps fan and I consistently knock the guy, he seems to have a real free pass with fans based on the echo chamber of Raps fans adoration.

As for the 4-team trade, he found three other GMs that found this trade to be in their self-interest. Hardly a miracle worker.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I just don't think Coangelo is that great of a GM, look at the awful excuse for a team he put on the floor last year - riddled with weaknesses and virtually no strengths.

I'm a Raps fan and I consistently knock the guy, he seems to have a real free pass with fans based on the echo chamber of Raps fans adoration.

As for the 4-team trade, he found three other GMs that found this trade to be in their self-interest. Hardly a miracle worker.

Yes, I'm sure that's why you see four team trades every other day--it's just so easy. You would be a member of incredibly short list of Raps fans who aren't just super pleased with this trade. Heck I've been reading versions of BC is God posts for hours over on the Raps version of CP.

[Gozer]

I didn't say I'm not pleased with the trade (although I'm not "super pleased"), I said one good trade doesn't make Coangelo a terrific GM (in response to your comparison to Sutter).

Oiler fans are thrilled with every trade they make too, doesn't mean its a great trade. Wasn't the O'Neal trade celebrated last year?

We add a lumbering finesse player at forward (Hedo) to Bargs (a lumbering finesse forward) and Bosh (a face-the-basket high post forward) - what evidence is there that this combination could work? Do we just plan on not rebounding or protecting the paint again this year...while getting slower?

This team still has no answer for Howard or LeBron, and don't even get me started on Boston's matchups. Are we really celebrating a trade that - at best - gets us a lousy playoff berth and a first round sweep?

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I didn't say I'm not pleased with the trade (although I'm not "super pleased"), I said one good trade doesn't make Coangelo a terrific GM (in response to your comparison to Sutter).

Oiler fans are thrilled with every trade they make too, doesn't mean its a great trade. Wasn't the O'Neal trade celebrated last year?

We add a lumbering finesse player at forward (Hedo) to Bargs (a lumbering finesse forward) and Bosh (a face-the-basket high post forward) - what evidence is there that this combination could work? Do we just plan on not rebounding or protecting the paint again this year...while getting slower?

This team still has no answer for Howard or LeBron, and don't even get me started on Boston's matchups. Are we really celebrating a trade that - at best - gets us a lousy playoff berth and a first round sweep?

I think I'll just let you wallow in your misery. You are the ONLY Rap fan on the planet not happy with this deal. IF you want to be Debbie Downer on a day like this go for it. I'm going back to conversing with real Raps fans--we are pretty excited about a great deal(you know by the NBA executive of the year in 2005 who built a great Suns team). But hey he has only done one good trade--comical.

[Gozer]

Ok, you go talk to real fans.