The Blue Jays: 2009 Season Thread - Page 53 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

moon · 07-07-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

I'm not setting this up to throw "you hate iggy!" in your face or anything - I'm just trying to understand the rationale of trading franchise players for prospects. I think trading Iggy in '05 would make more sense because that team wasn't as close to being contenders as the Jays are right now.

Actually the Flames were much more contenders than the Jays because they were always in the play-offs with a shot to win while the Jays basically start the season with 0 shot to win because they can't even make the play-offs.

Quote:

Right now the Jays might have the 4th best team in the league (unfortunately, the other three are in their division) why blow that up? Do we really think that the return on a Doc trade (minus Rolen and other roster turnover) will be the best team in the league in a three years?

I think you forgot the arguably before 4th there.

And the reason to blow it up is because for most fans finishing 4th in the division and not making the play-offs isn't that great no matter how many "moral" victories or 4th best team in the league awards the fans give the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Player's salary: Close to, perhaps below fair market value.

Burnett was overpaid, no way was he below fair market value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Trading Doc right now would lead to a greater return than trading him next trade deadline or leaving as a free agent. I do not contest that, but I think his contributions to the team are very important (plus he is not a sure bet to leave town like AJ was) and are worth more than a couple of (terrific) prospects that will either tank or want their own big money extension in a couple years.

But those prospects have a 100% better chance of contributing to the Jays in 2 years when they may have a shot at the play-offs and Halliday is gone from the team.

It may, and I stress the may here, make sense to a Jays fan to keep Halliday because his worth to them is higher than to anyone else considering the emotional attachments they have to him, but from a purely baseball stand point it makes 100% sense to trade Halliday now.

I know it is tough but Gozer you are looking at it way too much from a "trading my favorite player away" than what is best for the Jays. And there is no problem with you not liking the deal for that reason but don't try to argue that it makes baseball sense for the Jays to keep him for a year and a half when they have no shot at the play-offs during that time.

Saint Troy · 07-08-2009, 06:25 AM

I have no problem with the Jays trying to get a bundle back for Halladay, but they had better get back a ton. Has to be a shortstop, corner outfielder with power, top end pitching prospect, and if Ricciardi trades him within the division and Beeston approves it, they should change their name to the Expos.

transplant99 · 07-08-2009, 06:52 AM

No question the time to move Halladay is now...or before the 31st anyways.

Toronto isnt going to do anything more than they are...with or without him. He was on TV this morning saying that as much as he would love to stay with the Jays, he now puts winning as his first priority. That isnt going to happen in TO.

Rumblings are that the Phillies may be the best match for a deal as they have the prospects necessary to make it happen. No there wont be any impact roster players coming back, there rarely is in baseball trades as it is all about the future in these things.

One high end pitching prospect along with a good SS prospect and another player is what I would guess will happen.

flambers · 07-08-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by transplant99

No question the time to move Halladay is now...or before the 31st anyways.

Toronto isnt going to do anything more than they are...with or without him. He was on TV this morning saying that as much as he would love to stay with the Jays, he now puts winning as his first priority. That isnt going to happen in TO.

Rumblings are that the Phillies may be the best match for a deal as they have the prospects necessary to make it happen. No there wont be any impact roster players coming back, there rarely is in baseball trades as it is all about the future in these things.

One high end pitching prospect along with a good SS prospect and another player is what I would guess will happen.

Totally agree....

Gozer · 07-08-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moon

It may, and I stress the may here, make sense to a Jays fan to keep Halliday because his worth to them is higher than to anyone else considering the emotional attachments they have to him,

Probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moon

I know it is tough but Gozer you are looking at it way too much from a "trading my favorite player away" than what is best for the Jays. And there is no problem with you not liking the deal for that reason...

Yup, you're right about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moon

don't try to argue that it makes baseball sense for the Jays to keep him for a year and a half when they have no shot at the play-offs during that time.

But it supports my flimsy emotional rationalization!

As the Tao puts it, I don't know what I'll do if the Jays trade Doc.

Sylvanfan · 07-08-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

As the Tao puts it, I don't know what I'll do if the Jays trade Doc.

I see you changed that from I'll stop watching the Jays. If they were to get the right return for Halladay and emerged as a contending team two years down the road, chances are your interest would come back again.

For years I wanted to hate the Flames for how they were running the team and how hopeless another playoff berth seemed. No matter how much they sucked I couldn't do it though. I admit my interest in the team was a lot less, than it is when they're better. But I still watched.

Gozer · 07-08-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I see you changed that from I'll stop watching the Jays. If they were to get the right return for Halladay and emerged as a contending team two years down the road, chances are your interest would come back again.

That's really the false Elysian fields the "trade Doc" crowd seems to have, as if adding a top SS prospect and replacing Doc with a young pitcher with a fastball is going to put us on even footing with the Yanks and Sawx.

flambers · 07-08-2009, 10:50 AM

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/200..._trade_update/

"According to the latest online report surrounding the future of Roy Halladay in Toronto, it was on the Doc's orders that J.P. Ricciardi began fielding offers for the 2003 Cy Young Award winner."

flamesaresmokin · 07-08-2009, 10:55 AM

Halladay should return a package of at least a top pick, top prospect and decent player that can help now imo. If you can't at least get that then I don't see the benefit in moving him this soon. The jays could easily get hot again as they slowly get healthy and be within 4 or 5 games in a few weeks. Losing hallady for a few draft picks is a collossal step backwards if you don't at least get players that can step in and prospects that are on the right track.

Who knows, maybe riccardi can pull a work of art off and convince someone to take wells at the same time.

JustAnotherGuy · 07-08-2009, 11:17 AM

It seems that the blue jays have a young solid base of pitching. With the strenght of the other three teams in there division I believe the blue jays need to trade some of their more expensive talent and get younger hitting.

It is a gamble but I believe it must be done while their biggest trade asset is at its peak value.

At this time they also need to change their club house atmosphere. At least that is my impression. They need to trade Wells and get whatever they can for him. I also believe they need to trade Rios. His low key approach to the game I think is not good for the team.

So trading Halladay, Wells, and Rios over the next few months should be done. The return for these players should be enough to get a couple very solid out fielders to replace Wells and Rios. Plus other assets.

They will mise Wells defense, but his offense is costing the team. So is his salary.

Call me an idiot and disagree with me. But that is my opinion. I believe that bringing in the young exciting prospects will keep the Blue Jays a fun team to watch.

Gozer · 07-08-2009, 11:31 AM

No one will miss Well's defense.

Jiggy_12 · 07-08-2009, 12:24 PM

Trading Roy Halladay will not make the Jays a better team, I don't think anybody would argue that.

But losing Halladay for nothing at the end of next year or very little at the trade deadline next year would make the Jays a worse team than they would be if they traded now and got better assets.

I believe we could get 2 top flights players, especially with the amount of teams that would be interested...the bidding would get very high.

Ryan Howard?

Gozer · 07-08-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

Trading Roy Halladay will not make the Jays a better team, I don't think anybody would argue that.

But losing Halladay for nothing at the end of next year or very little at the trade deadline next year would make the Jays a worse team than they would be if they traded now and got better assets.

I believe we could get 2 top flights players, especially with the amount of teams that would be interested...the bidding would get very high.

Ryan Howard?

Howard is making $18M. We'll get a couple of prospects and/or draft picks. No one we've heard of.

And Doc leaving as a free agent would result in two first round picks coming Toronto's way - hardly "nothing." As for next year's trade deadline - maybe the economy is recovering and teams are ok paying big money while trading away their treasured (cheap) prospects. Look what the return on Texaria or Sabbathia was - hardly insignificant.

OILFAN #81 · 07-08-2009, 12:32 PM

Halladay deserves to play for a team that actually has a chance of making the playoffs/being a contender.

Gozer · 07-08-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

Halladay deserves to play for a team that actually has a chance of making the playoffs/being a contender.

That's harldy the Jay's responsibility though.

OILFAN #81 · 07-08-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

That's harldy the Jay's responsibility though.

I know. I'm just saying that he's the best pitcher in baseball and he deserves to play for a playoff team/contender which the Jays are not. Toronto is virtually out of the race already this year so they have him for next season. They would be better off trading him then letting him go for nothing after next season at which point it literally wouldn't be the Jays responsibility.

Jiggy_12 · 07-08-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

Howard is making $18M. We'll get a couple of prospects and/or draft picks. No one we've heard of.

And Doc leaving as a free agent would result in two first round picks coming Toronto's way - hardly "nothing." As for next year's trade deadline - maybe the economy is recovering and teams are ok paying big money while trading away their treasured (cheap) prospects. Look what the return on Texaria or Sabbathia was - hardly insignificant.

Halladay is slated to make $15M....not a huge difference to Howard.

Anyways, that is the type of player I feel Halladay CAN net if we trade him this year. The Jays won't go crazy with salary, but they should be able to get a top player like Howard/Braun/Fielder/Utley/Wright if they so desire. Or, a boatload of prospects which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.

photon · 07-08-2009, 01:18 PM

Poll on trading Halladay

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=76484

Created a new thread for the poll.

Gozer · 07-08-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

Anyways, that is the type of player I feel Halladay CAN net if we trade him this year. The Jays won't go crazy with salary, but they should be able to get a top player like Howard/Braun/Fielder/Utley/Wright if they so desire. Or, a boatload of prospects which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.

I think he's worth those kind of players, but I don't think they can get those calibre of guys.

it doesn't make sense that TEAM would trade PLAYER when PLAYER is integral to their championship aspirations. Teams want to add Doc to make a run at a title, subtracting an all-star would be counter-productive.

Jiggy_12 · 07-08-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gozer

I think he's worth those kind of players, but I don't think they can get those calibre of guys.

it doesn't make sense that TEAM would trade PLAYER when PLAYER is integral to their championship aspirations. Teams want to add Doc to make a run at a title, subtracting an all-star would be counter-productive.

True, but teams with a loaded offense might pull the trigger to land the best pitcher in baseball. I would trade the 10th best hitter for the best pitcher anyday. Not saying Howard is 10th best, just an example.