06-23-2009, 01:13 PM
|
#61
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion
Unions can bring companies to thier knees and sometimes put them out of business with thier excessive demands. There was 3 Safeway stores in Thunder Bay some years ago that closed it's doors due to excessive union demands.
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2002/0...way020606.html
|
Or Ben's Restaurant in Montreal.
For those who aren't familiar, Ben's was a famed Montreal landmark. Over the 98 years in which it was open, the deli was frequented by many Quebec and international celebrities including Pierre Trudeau, Paul Martin, Rene Levesque, Bette Middler, Maurice Richard, Jean Beleveau, and just about every other member of the Montreal Canadiens over the years. Leonard Cohen was known to write many of his songs and poems while occupying a booth at Ben's late at night. It was also chosen by the government of Canada to be the store in which the two dollar coin was launched.
Then their staff went on strike in 2006. The owners concluded that they couldn't meet the salary demands of the union while still providing their customers with a decent lunch for under $10, so they decided to close up shop permenantly. So a Montreal institution which had remained as a small, family-owned business for nearly a century was forced out of business by a greedy union. Needless to say, the 25 staff employed by the deli all lost their jobs as a consequence.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...s20061215.html
Last edited by MarchHare; 06-23-2009 at 01:23 PM.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to MarchHare For This Useful Post:
|
|
06-23-2009, 01:13 PM
|
#62
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CP House of Ill Repute
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion
And when govt and companies bring in replacement workers to do the job unions won't do they cry foul. It's okay for unions to prevent companies from doing thier business but it's not okay for the companies to hire replacement workers. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
|
It's not hypocrisy at all.
If the two sides can't come to an agreement, why should one side get the benefit of replacing the people they can't make a deal with?
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 01:22 PM
|
#63
|
Not a casual user
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp
It's not hypocrisy at all.
If the two sides can't come to an agreement, why should one side get the benefit of replacing the people they can't make a deal with?
|
It is hypocrisy. Strikers on the picket line are allowed to recieve strike pay yet you would deny a company thier right to earn money also. Maybe to be fair, workers walking the picket line should recieve no strike pay.
__________________
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 01:27 PM
|
#64
|
Powerplay Quarterback
|
Unions replace merit with seniority and earnings with entitlements.
That's a losing proposition every time.
And if you think that an industry can just dump the union and hire non-union replacements, then you've never been a scab.
__________________
zk
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:31 PM
|
#65
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CP House of Ill Repute
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion
It is hypocrisy. Strikers on the picket line are allowed to recieve strike pay yet you would deny a company thier right to earn money also. Maybe to be fair, workers walking the picket line should recieve no strike pay.
|
Strike pay is a pittance. It doesn't come close to making up for the wages striking workers lose.
Management can usually act as replacement workers if a company is desperate enough.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:37 PM
|
#66
|
Norm!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp
You know how you can tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving.
If the union is asking for too much money, the city government could say, "we're no longer in the garbage collection business, here's how much you're going to save on your tax bill annually but you're going to have to hire a private business to pick up your garbage".
I don't have a lot of sympathy for city governments since most of them seem to be run by the dregs of the politician barrel.
|
Perfect, I'm a big fan of privatizing every thing possible that the government is doing, throw some competition into the mix and see what happens to our costs.
I'm even ok with the government using their negotiating deals to subcontract out as much as they can.
As for unions. I'm not a fan of their fishing expeditions where they seed union spies into non union companies to stir things up to get the Union moved in.
I'm not a fan of the whole certification process and how companies can't defend themselves against the unions short of shutting down.
I'm not a fan of the fact that in order to reach concessions with a union you have to get to the point where your filling out bankrupsty and termination forms.
I'm not a fan of a lot of the lazy union workers that I met and their sense of entitlement.
I don't believe that a guy that screws bolts into holes is worth any more then 12 bucks an hour.
I don't believe that essential services like healthcare, like garbage collection like teachers should have the right to walk off of the job without serious problems.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:39 PM
|
#67
|
Norm!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp
Strike pay is a pittance. It doesn't come close to making up for the wages striking workers lose.
Management can usually act as replacement workers if a company is desperate enough.
|
If the members have the right to walk off of the job and not show up for work, then the companies have the right to replace them, and not just with managers, they should have the right to reaganize em.
A union agreement should never be a suicide pact.
In business I have a right to walk away from a deal thats bad for my company, especially if I can prove it. It should be here.
The owners and managers have just as much right to run their business in a profitable manner as the employees have a right to come in to work and get paid a fair wage for their service based on what the market will handle.
Thats business.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:41 PM
|
#68
|
CP Pontiff
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: A pasture out by Millarville
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
Or Ben's Restaurant in Montreal.
For those who aren't familiar, Ben's was a famed Montreal landmark. Over the 98 years in which it was open, the deli was frequented by many Quebec and international celebrities including Pierre Trudeau, Paul Martin, Rene Levesque, Bette Middler, Maurice Richard, Jean Beleveau, and just about every other member of the Montreal Canadiens over the years. Leonard Cohen was known to write many of his songs and poems while occupying a booth at Ben's late at night. It was also chosen by the government of Canada to be the store in which the two dollar coin was launched.
Then their staff went on strike in 2006. The owners concluded that they couldn't meet the salary demands of the union while still providing their customers with a decent lunch for under $10, so they decided to close up shop permenantly. So a Montreal institution which had remained as a small, family-owned business for nearly a century was forced out of business by a greedy union. Needless to say, the 25 staff employed by the deli all lost their jobs as a consequence.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...s20061215.html
|
That story reminded me of the obscure walnut workers walkout in California . . . . . . . settled after 13 years in 2004.
Striking workers at a walnut processing plant in California have voted to bring their 13-year walkout to an end.
The 600 members of the Teamsters Local 601 union went on strike at the Diamond of California plant in September 1991 in a dispute over pay.
"I think it was worth it in that we did accomplish something," said the union.
"Nobody ever thought it would take this long," said Lucio Reyes, the union's secretary-treasurer.
"The company didn't expect it, we didn't expect it. Both parties now realize we have to work together.
"Everyone should be feeling good about this."
Most of the 600 workers have jobs elsewhere now and many jobs have been replaced by automated processes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4374657.stm
Cowperson
__________________
Dear Lord, help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am. - Anonymous
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Cowperson For This Useful Post:
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:48 PM
|
#69
|
Norm!
|
Yeah, I wonder how many of those workers went to work in other unionized shops. It'd be interesting to see that stat.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:48 PM
|
#70
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CP House of Ill Repute
|
^ Now that story reminds me of Kramer's job at the Bagel place on Seinfeld.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:54 PM
|
#71
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CP House of Ill Repute
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
Or Ben's Restaurant in Montreal.
For those who aren't familiar, Ben's was a famed Montreal landmark. Over the 98 years in which it was open, the deli was frequented by many Quebec and international celebrities including Pierre Trudeau, Paul Martin, Rene Levesque, Bette Middler, Maurice Richard, Jean Beleveau, and just about every other member of the Montreal Canadiens over the years. Leonard Cohen was known to write many of his songs and poems while occupying a booth at Ben's late at night. It was also chosen by the government of Canada to be the store in which the two dollar coin was launched.
Then their staff went on strike in 2006. The owners concluded that they couldn't meet the salary demands of the union while still providing their customers with a decent lunch for under $10, so they decided to close up shop permenantly. So a Montreal institution which had remained as a small, family-owned business for nearly a century was forced out of business by a greedy union. Needless to say, the 25 staff employed by the deli all lost their jobs as a consequence.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...s20061215.html
|
From what I've heard Ben's went downhill in the early 90's, the original owner died and the new person running it did a lousy job. The place was only living off its past reputation. It closed up because it wasn't as good as it used to be. The strike was just an excuse for them to close it down.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 02:54 PM
|
#72
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clinching Party
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchHare
The owners concluded that they couldn't meet the salary demands of the union while still providing their customers with a decent lunch for under $10, so they decided to close up shop permenantly. So a Montreal institution which had remained as a small, family-owned business for nearly a century was forced out of business by a greedy union. Needless to say, the 25 staff employed by the deli all lost their jobs as a consequence.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...s20061215.html
|
Isn't this called capitalism? If you can't afford to pay your employees, you go out of business. That's the deal.
Or were these people supposed to take less and work in crappy circumstances so the owner could keep his prices down? Nobody else is expected to do that.
Getting rich is a big deal in our society. Rich people are admired for going out there and getting everything they can get. They become famous and everyone claps them on the back for a job well done.
When a few peons get together and try to do exactly that -- get everything they can -- they are the scum of the earth. Idiots. Communists. You name it.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:01 PM
|
#73
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2006
Location: @HOOT250
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos
When a few peons get together and try to do exactly that -- get everything they can -- they are the scum of the earth. Idiots. Communists. You name it.
|
My problem is when people in a similar field are making half as much because they aren't union. By doing this you put the business you work for in danger of not being competitive, which puts your job in question. Seems kinda weird to me.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by henriksedin33
Not at all, as I've said, I would rather start with LA over any of the other WC playoff teams. Bunch of underachievers who look good on paper but don't even deserve to be in the playoffs.
|
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:07 PM
|
#74
|
Playboy Mansion Poolboy
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Close enough to make a beer run during a TV timeout
|
A hotel I worked at had the bar staff all become unionized. They went from minimum wage to about 50% over minimum wage; along with a 40% reduction in hours. So on the surface it sounds like the same money for less work, right? Unfortunately nobody at the union bothered to ask the staff to find out that most of their income came in the way of tips, so their net pay went down as well.
I have also seen in my short time at my new job a guy they tried to fire for incompetence. The solution management came up with was to re-assign him. Nope- he went to the union to keep his job. So now he does his old job, and somebody else was hired to sit beside him to make sure he doesn't fata up.
I agree with the sentiment made earlier; unions were absolutely necessary when people were getting killed on the job or exposed to major hazards. Now that there are labour laws in place, do we still need them?
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to ken0042 For This Useful Post:
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:11 PM
|
#75
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos
Getting rich is a big deal in our society. Rich people are admired for going out there and getting everything they can get. They become famous and everyone claps them on the back for a job well done.
When a few peons get together and try to do exactly that -- get everything they can -- they are the scum of the earth. Idiots. Communists. You name it.
|
Entrepreneurs typically get rich through ingenuity and hardwork. Not by banding together and holding a company hostage. Unions are all about sticking it to the man by doing the least and reaping the most rewards possible.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:11 PM
|
#76
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clinching Party
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
My problem is when people in a similar field are making half as much because they aren't union.
|
Whose fault is that? If I'm making half as much as some other guy doing the exact job, well that's my problem, not the guy making more money.
If the guy who makes more money isn't in a union, we'd all give him a high five. But since he's in a union, he's a maggot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
By doing this you put the business you work for in danger of not being competitive, which puts your job in question. Seems kinda weird to me.
|
The people responsible for making the business competitive are not in unions. If they've effed it up so bad that they can't remain competitive, well, that's on management. The union didn't do it.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:16 PM
|
#77
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CP House of Ill Repute
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
In business I have a right to walk away from a deal thats bad for my company, especially if I can prove it. It should be here.
|
I bet Alexei Yashin agrees with you.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:17 PM
|
#78
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2006
Location: @HOOT250
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos
The people responsible for making the business competitive are not in unions. If they've effed it up so bad that they can't remain competitive, well, that's on management. The union didn't do it.
|
When the union demands raises and say if we don't get them we walk what do you expect the businesses to do? Someone has to budge and the problem is unions know they are more powerful than the companies now because they have all the rights.
Don't get me wrong good for them for taking every penny but when they lose their job when the company goes bankrupt they can look in the mirror and enjoy EI, an even bigger paycut for anyone in a union.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by henriksedin33
Not at all, as I've said, I would rather start with LA over any of the other WC playoff teams. Bunch of underachievers who look good on paper but don't even deserve to be in the playoffs.
|
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:21 PM
|
#79
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: YSJ (1979-2002) -> YYC (2002-2022) -> YVR (2022-present)
|
Quote:
Isn't this called capitalism? If you can't afford to pay your employees, you go out of business. That's the deal.
Or were these people supposed to take less and work in crappy circumstances so the owner could keep his prices down? Nobody else is expected to do that.
|
A trained monkey can serve sandwiches at a deli. Why should those employees have been paid a cent more than minimum wage + tips? I'm sure there were plenty of people in Montreal (e.g. university students looking for part-time work) who would have been thrilled to work at Ben's for that salary.
Instead, the unionized workers demanded a salary far in excess of what the position is worth, and the business shut down as a consequence.
|
|
|
06-23-2009, 03:38 PM
|
#80
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clinching Party
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
When the union demands raises and say if we don't get them we walk what do you expect the businesses to do? Someone has to budge and the problem is unions know they are more powerful than the companies now because they have all the rights.
|
I don't know about that. I do know that someone gave them those rights though. They didn't march into the boss's office with a handgun and put it to his head.
Look, I'm not really "pro-union". I'm not in a union and I don't work in an industry that would ever have a union.
It's just that I don't get why unions are so demonized. "Those greedy s are overpaid! They get too many benefits!".
We all want to be overpaid. We all want too many benefits. They got it, and people hate them for it.
Now sure, if they somehow manage to get so much leverage that they tip the company over, that's bad. But who pays the price for that? They do.
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:16 PM.
|
|