Would you strike

[moon]

I would definately cross the line. I do not support unions, especially in Canada today. As many people have said they too often protect inept workers and have gotten away from helping workers get better environments.

For me if I didn't like the conditions that I was working at rather than striking I would get another job. I certainly wouldn't go on strike to support a union that I don't support from the get go.

[Indi]

Originally posted by FireFly+Jul 21 2005, 03:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FireFly @ Jul 21 2005, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Indi@Jul 21 2005, 06:29 AM
I'm going to relate this to Telus...do you think the Union is fighting for huge raises, large company perks, extended days off....nope, all they want is something close to a cost of living wage. Telus has refused to negotiate for 4 years, essentially telling their employees to p*ss off for 4 years. Now, they are imposing a contract that has never been negotiated, never been presented, zip, nada, zilch.....is that fair? I would never cross that picket line, EVER....when a company chooses to take the hardline stance rather than work with its employees, I will always side with the employees. I've worked in a union for about 12 years at a couple of different employers...contrary to popular belief, alot of contracts have ruled out seniority rights (this one p*sses all non union people off), kept raises at about 3-4%/year, and guaranteed benefit rights......boy does that sound evil huh. Working for Esso in '99, they wanted to freeze salaries for 2 years, after reported record profits for the last 2 years....big business is not in the business to help its employees.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but working for Telus myself, I do have some insight into the situation...

I answer a phone for $17.21/hour. I think that's fair. Top wage under the old contract was $20.22. Also fair. It's a damn phone, not rocket science. Sure, we deal with *******, but I've dealt with ******* for $7/hour.

The union is not fighting for cost of living. And it's the union that hasn't been negotiating for almost 5 years now. Telus has come up with a number of offers, that the union will pick apart. Then the union will NOT rewrite them in their own terminology, and hand it back. Instead they hand in what is the current offer, but with huge raises. When Telus turns it down and hands in another offer, the union has come up with the same offer but taking EVEN MORE! How is that bargaining? And how does that not stink of the same shinguard that the NHLPA tried?

The offer in question that is being implemented tomorrow, was given to the union in March, reworked in April, and then again in June. The union has had it since March, and we were not given a chance to look at it until Telus gave it to us. Why? Because the union doesn't want us to see what Telus is offering. I will be getting a 98c raise starting tomorrow. Perhaps even as much as $1.70, due to my missing my last raise. Not presented? By the union to it's members, you're right. But it was absolutely presented to the union.

So now, the union is telling people that we're being bullied into working. I have NEVER been bullied. My management rocks. And yet the union threatened it's own members with fines of up to $1,000 for working overtime, and 'relieving management'.... Those who had such positions that did relieve management were spoken to by management and told that they would be excused from their duties as management relief so they wouldn't have to make that decision. Sounds evil, huh? Telus looking out for it's employees....


Anyways, since you have no idea what you're talking about in this case, I suggest you don't. I on the other hand am proud to be a Telus employee, and will proudly cross the picket line for the company that has treated me well and given me so much while I've been there. I feel sorry for those who are out picketing as when it's all said and done, Telus will win, and they'll just be p*ssed that I was smart enough to be earning a decent living, rather than picket for $250/week. I'm afraid most of our union members are as brainwashed as the NHLPA was in this case, and I'm afraid you are just the kinda member they wish to recruit. [/b][/quote]
hey, maybe things are better in the call center. My brother works as a new construction tech for the vaunted telus, so I'm privy to a thing or two....but I appreciate you pointing out that I dont know what I'm talking about...it shows your ignorance my friend.....
When a company presents a contract and says this is what we are going with, the negotiations are slightly one sided...wouldnt you say? The union cannot present this to its members in good faith as there was limited to no union involvement at the table....does this make sense? I'm not trying to be a dick like you were, I'm just trying to explain how a union has to work

[Indi]

another thing...how do you think the wage got to be $17 and change for answering a phone? it wasnt because of your social graces

[Hakan]

Unions definetely still have their place though, unfortunately, they're not where the workers need them. Most of the powerful unions are public sector unions because their employer, Government, sort of has to play by the rules and is decently accountable and transparent. I would argue that these unions hold a disproportionate and sometimes harmful amount of power. I look at BC Ferries being the prime example of this.

This does not mean that unions are not necessary or superfluous as there are countless industries which need union representation. Daycare workers and domestic workers, late night office cleaners, fruit pickers etc. If you notice, the most disadvantaged workers are usually those with the least amount of priviledge in our society, immigrants, minorities and poor people. There are no unions for the jobs which these people typically need to work in and there should be.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by browna@Jul 21 2005, 06:10 AM


If your unions done something for you, or protecting you from some underhanded proposal like making your child work in a coal mine, then stick by them.

This is the key. Unions used to be relevant in protecting workers rights. But I fail to see what value they add to society as a whole now days. When unions are protecting absurdly high payrolls and fostering inefficient work practices, then it is we who have to pay via higher prices for goods (e.g. Air Canada vs Westjet). I follow the news GM and Ford....if the UAW union would change their healthcare benefits to the same system as the non-unionized employees have (which is pretty good) then GM could go a long way in wiping out their losses (they have other issues too). Car costs would come down, US based plants would not have to be shut, etc.

[Indi]

Originally posted by fotze@Jul 21 2005, 05:16 PM
The food industry (restaurants) could use a kick in the ass. Maybe if the gov't just enforced its minimal standards.

how true is that....the food and retail industries are the absolute worst. I especially liked when Walmart in quebec (cant remember which town) closed their doors after a union was voted in by the employees. All the employees wanted was healthcare coverage. I vowed never to shop at walmart again...my wife hates me for that

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Indi+Jul 21 2005, 11:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Indi @ Jul 21 2005, 11:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but working for Telus myself, I do have some insight into the situation...

I answer a phone for $17.21/hour. I think that's fair. Top wage under the old contract was $20.22. Also fair. It's a damn phone, not rocket science. Sure, we deal with *******, but I've dealt with ******* for $7/hour.

The union is not fighting for cost of living. And it's the union that hasn't been negotiating for almost 5 years now. Telus has come up with a number of offers, that the union will pick apart. Then the union will NOT rewrite them in their own terminology, and hand it back. Instead they hand in what is the current offer, but with huge raises. When Telus turns it down and hands in another offer, the union has come up with the same offer but taking EVEN MORE! How is that bargaining? And how does that not stink of the same shinguard that the NHLPA tried?

The offer in question that is being implemented tomorrow, was given to the union in March, reworked in April, and then again in June. The union has had it since March, and we were not given a chance to look at it until Telus gave it to us. Why? Because the union doesn't want us to see what Telus is offering. I will be getting a 98c raise starting tomorrow. Perhaps even as much as $1.70, due to my missing my last raise. Not presented? By the union to it's members, you're right. But it was absolutely presented to the union.

So now, the union is telling people that we're being bullied into working. I have NEVER been bullied. My management rocks. And yet the union threatened it's own members with fines of up to $1,000 for working overtime, and 'relieving management'.... Those who had such positions that did relieve management were spoken to by management and told that they would be excused from their duties as management relief so they wouldn't have to make that decision. Sounds evil, huh? Telus looking out for it's employees....


Anyways, since you have no idea what you're talking about in this case, I suggest you don't. I on the other hand am proud to be a Telus employee, and will proudly cross the picket line for the company that has treated me well and given me so much while I've been there. I feel sorry for those who are out picketing as when it's all said and done, Telus will win, and they'll just be p*ssed that I was smart enough to be earning a decent living, rather than picket for $250/week. I'm afraid most of our union members are as brainwashed as the NHLPA was in this case, and I'm afraid you are just the kinda member they wish to recruit.

hey, maybe things are better in the call center. My brother works as a new construction tech for the vaunted telus, so I'm privy to a thing or two....but I appreciate you pointing out that I dont know what I'm talking about...it shows your ignorance my friend.....
When a company presents a contract and says this is what we are going with, the negotiations are slightly one sided...wouldnt you say? The union cannot present this to its members in good faith as there was limited to no union involvement at the table....does this make sense? I'm not trying to be a dick like you were, I'm just trying to explain how a union has to work [/b][/quote]
When a company presents a contract to a union, who does fata all about it, and doesn't show it to their members for months, when said union has said months to have a vote on said contract, and doesn't even show it to the members, how is the company supposed to react? The union can't present ANYTHING to it's members in good faith because it hasn't negotiated! If you go to the TWU website, they have their offer up there. You know what it says? It says "TWU Counter Proposals
Changes proposed to the BCTEL – TWU Collective Agreement dated January 18, 1999 – December 31, 2000 will be indicated by bold print"

That's what they've done. That's it. They've had 4 and a half years to look at Telus's offers... all of them, (and they have been changing,) and all they can do is counter propose the EXACT SAME THING they already have, with raises.

When the BC Tel union was created, BC Tel was a monopoly. This isn't the case anymore, and the union fails to realize it is now a competitive market, and Telus isn't going to bend over for them.

So what does the union do? It supports vandalism against the company. Did you know one of the cables a union memeber cut connected the phone services to a hospital? That's my union. They start a smear campaign through various ads... great job, try to sink the company your members work for, then we're all out of a job. Smart.

You're right. There was no union involvement at the table. They've had four years to work with the many different offers that Telus has given them, and they choose not to. Do you see how I pay them to negotiate and they aren't? Is that how a union is supposed to work?

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Indi@Jul 21 2005, 11:11 AM
another thing...how do you think the wage got to be $17 and change for answering a phone? it wasnt because of your social graces

Actually, it was a different union that got that for me... the CEP. However, the fabulous TWU took them over. Nice try though. The TWU is all about forcing people to join them. And as a matter of fact, I have nothing but compliments from my managers about my 'social graces'. I just don't abide by people who think they know what they're talking about, when they really don't. Perhaps if your brother took the time to learn both sides of the coin instead of the tripe the union feeds him, you'd have a different opinion about the union. Again, reminds me of the NHLPA sheep. They didn't question their 'ruler' either.

[Indi]

Originally posted by FireFly+Jul 21 2005, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FireFly @ Jul 21 2005, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Indi@Jul 21 2005, 11:11 AM
another thing...how do you think the wage got to be $17 and change for answering a phone? it wasnt because of your social graces

Actually, it was a different union that got that for me... the CEP. However, the fabulous TWU took them over. Nice try though. The TWU is all about forcing people to join them. And as a matter of fact, I have nothing but compliments from my managers about my 'social graces'. I just don't abide by people who think they know what they're talking about, when they really don't. Perhaps if your brother took the time to learn both sides of the coin instead of the tripe the union feeds him, you'd have a different opinion about the union. Again, reminds me of the NHLPA sheep. They didn't question their 'ruler' either. [/b][/quote]
I happen to hold a position within the CEP union, I can't comment on the TWU, but the CEP is following this labour action, as with any other. It's always fine to sit on the sidelines and snipe about other people, but it takes cojones to actually get involved and try and do something. Do you realize how many steps Telus has circumvented in order to force the contract? Its plain to see that you are on the far right on this issue, while I may be slightly left, so there are two points of view, neither of them wrong or right, just different. I hope that this gets settled quickly and the employees arent out for too long.............good luck

[Clarkey]

Compare Telus, to say, TransCanada Pipelines. Both are highly regulated. TCPL's employees are not unionized and they are doing excellent, better than Telus. Let the market decide what people should be paid. Cut out the inefficiencies. As someone pointed out above, it's not like Telus is a coal mine.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Indi+Jul 21 2005, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Indi @ Jul 21 2005, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Actually, it was a different union that got that for me... the CEP. However, the fabulous TWU took them over. Nice try though. The TWU is all about forcing people to join them. And as a matter of fact, I have nothing but compliments from my managers about my 'social graces'. I just don't abide by people who think they know what they're talking about, when they really don't. Perhaps if your brother took the time to learn both sides of the coin instead of the tripe the union feeds him, you'd have a different opinion about the union. Again, reminds me of the NHLPA sheep. They didn't question their 'ruler' either.

I happen to hold a position within the CEP union, I can't comment on the TWU, but the CEP is following this labour action, as with any other. It's always fine to sit on the sidelines and snipe about other people, but it takes cojones to actually get involved and try and do something. Do you realize how many steps Telus has circumvented in order to force the contract? Its plain to see that you are on the far right on this issue, while I may be slightly left, so there are two points of view, neither of them wrong or right, just different. I hope that this gets settled quickly and the employees arent out for too long.............good luck [/b][/quote]
I don't want the employees to be out for too long either. And if they really believe in the cause, I support their strike actions. However, what the union is telling it's members, and the actual story are two different things.

Do you think Telus is enjoying this? They obviously believe they also have it right in this matter. The minute they took partial lockout measures, they were threatened with immediate strike action. That's how it works. But they took that risk to get the contract to it's employees because the union wasn't doing so. Perhaps the union has a couple points, but why aren't they working on them instead of doing nothing? Why are they playing dirty? Does it help anyone?

The union is telling me that it is not concerned about the wages in Telus' offer, and yet your brother thinks they're fighting for cost of living wages. Which is it? Is the union happy or not with the wages offered? The union is telling me they are trying to protect my job security, so going on strike is helping, how? Why don't you reword the offer to what you feel is appropriate then? But they don't. As I said, if I felt the union was doing it's job, I'd picket too.

Unions have a place, but this is to the point where it's ridiculous. They've had 4.5 years to get a new offer out there, and they haven't done anything. That's not Telus' fault, that's the union working hard to earn my money.

And I have tried to get involved, I've talked to many. Unfortunately, this union is run by BC members, and TCI members, who have long supported the union, and they don't give a shinguard about my concerns. So I'm getting involved another way... I'm crossing. They should hear that more loudly than they heard my concerns last time.

[moon]

Originally posted by Indi+Jul 21 2005, 10:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Indi @ Jul 21 2005, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fotze@Jul 21 2005, 05:16 PM
The food industry (restaurants) could use a kick in the ass. Maybe if the gov't just enforced its minimal standards.

how true is that....the food and retail industries are the absolute worst. I especially liked when Walmart in quebec (cant remember which town) closed their doors after a union was voted in by the employees. All the employees wanted was healthcare coverage. I vowed never to shop at walmart again...my wife hates me for that [/b][/quote]
I hate Walmart and would never want to shop there but that story made me want to shop there at least a few times if for mothing else because of the great decision they made.

[dustygoon]

Originally posted by Indi@Jul 21 2005, 05:45 PM
Do you realize how many steps Telus has circumvented in order to force the contract?

Please tell us. And could you give a balanced view as well and mention why it has taken since 2000 to come to this point?

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by fotze+Jul 21 2005, 09:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fotze @ Jul 21 2005, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MarchHare@Jul 21 2005, 08:49 AM
Unions are now an anachronism in modern, Western nations.

Well at least you are putting good use to the degree you got. [/b][/quote]
Huh? I used anachronism in the proper context there.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anachronism

See definition 2:

2 : a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially : one from a former age that is incongruous in the present

In other words, I was saying that unions are a relic of a bygone era.

no reason not to strike in the summer.....have you ever heard the term leverage?

That was entirely my point. The union chose to use the students as pawns in their fight for more money, forcing the administration to give in to a deal in order to save the semester from cancellation.

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by fotze+Jul 21 2005, 02:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fotze @ Jul 21 2005, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Huh? I used anachronism in the proper context there.

I was just poking fun that you used the word at all. I went to university and have no idea what that word means. But engineering had no courses on writin' sentences n' stuff. [/b][/quote]
Heh.

My degree was in CS, so the same applies to me too. I didn't think that word was that obscure, though.

[BlackRedGold25]

Originally posted by moon+Jul 21 2005, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moon @ Jul 21 2005, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Indi@Jul 21 2005, 10:25 AM

I especially liked when Walmart in quebec (cant remember which town) closed their doors after a union was voted in by the employees. All the employees wanted was healthcare coverage. I vowed never to shop at walmart again...my wife hates me for that

I hate Walmart and would never want to shop there but that story made me want to shop there at least a few times if for mothing else because of the great decision they made. [/b][/quote]
You have to be an evil bas**rd to want to support billionaires, with more money then they know what to do with, who use their power to bully lower income, working people.

If you support over a hundred people losing their jobs because of Wal-Mart's greed, you're an *******.

[Clarkey]

Maybe 100 people lost their jobs because they tried to collude to fata over Walmart.

I hate Walmart but I applauded what they did in Quebec.

[Winsor_Pilates]

My dad has worked for Telus/AGT for longer than I've been alive, and everything that he has told me sounds like what Firefly has wrote.
From what I've been told, this strike is really headed by the BC employees, and Alberta staff are pretty much being mislead and dragged into it. The union was at fault for not negotiating in four years, and dispite what their leaders say, they will likely end up with a much worse deal after all of this done than if they had negotiated in the first place.
Funny that Firefly compared it the The NHLPA, becuase that's the first thing that I thought of too.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates@Jul 21 2005, 11:56 PM
My dad has worked for Telus/AGT for longer than I've been alive, and everything that he has told me sounds like what Firefly has wrote.
From what I've been told, this strike is really headed by the BC employees, and Alberta staff are pretty much being mislead and dragged into it. The union was at fault for not negotiating in four years, and dispite what their leaders say, they will likely end up with a much worse deal after all of this done than if they had negotiated in the first place.
Funny that Firefly compared it the The NHLPA, becuase that's the first thing that I thought of too.

I'm so glad your dad feels the same way! Is he crossing too? It's really too bad that BC is so much bigger than we are... I totally wish we could take them down in a vote.

[Vulcan]

Myself, I would think very carefully about being one of the first crossing a picket line. You may think of it as just a another dispute but the people on the line may take it as a personal insult which jeopardizes their way of life. Ask yourself if you plan to stay with Telus and if you do, how will you relate to your fellow employs when this is over. If you hope to go into management maybe your crossing will build up browny points but if this is just a temporary job you are on your own. I would at least wait until you know which way the wind is blowing before crossing.