Schools Req'd to notify parents before teaching evolution

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

If parents have a duty, we should respect their decisions on how to educate their children over the State.

So home-school your child, in that case. Don't micromanage the public education system, which is being run and managed by individuals more qualified than you.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

i agree 100%, religion has no place in the public school system.

I disagree 100%.

The fact that this and many many other debates such as this happen and will continue to happen prove that, like it or not, religion has a large impact on our political landscape. Giving a better education on world religions and religious history would, IMO, greatly improve social studies education.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

So home-school your child, in that case. Don't micromanage the public education system, which is being run and managed by individuals more qualified than you.

Yes, I agree. This isn't really an issue in Alberta and frankly, I am mystified as to why Bill 44 is needed in the first place. We have an excellent system that supports public, private and charter schools. Parents have tons of options.

What I really fear is the legislations to the Human Rights Commissions which truly do create the possibility of even more politicization of our classrooms, which in my opinion is not a good thing.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I disagree 100%.

The fact that this and many many other debates such as this happen and will continue to happen prove that, like it or not, religion has a large impact on our political landscape. Giving a better education on world religions and religious history would, IMO, greatly improve social studies education.

Humanities education is such a disgrace in our high schools.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by peter12

Humanities education is such a disgrace in our high schools.

It's been a long time for me--can you expand on that a little? As a "humanities educator" (in a university, not a high school), I'm kind of an interested observer of that sort of thing.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It's been a long time for me--can you expand on that a little? As a "humanities educator" (in a university, not a high school), I'm kind of an interested observer of that sort of thing.

Look at the average high school "social studies" curriculum. No literature and no philosophy, just an assorted bag of "global studies" and basic geography. Students don't learn to read or write and then critically challenge their own beliefs based upon that. High school students are being ripped off and so are teachers.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

i agree 100%, religion has no place in the public school system.

Religious dogma has no place in the public school system. However, religious studies definitely does. Whether we like it or not, religions dominated history and its important to understand how and why.

I agree with peter12, the way humanities are taught in high school are woefully inadequate, particularly the social studies aspects. Regurgitating facts and predetermined observations do not promote critical thought, or do a good job of teaching the subtle nuances of history.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Religious dogma has no place in the public school system. However, religious studies definitely does. Whether we like it or not, religions dominated history and its important to understand how and why.

I agree with peter12, the way humanities are taught in high school are woefully inadequate, particularly the social studies aspects. Regurgitating facts and predetermined observations do not promote critical thought, or do a good job of teaching the subtle nuances of history.

The philosophy of religion is incredibly important to our health as a society and it's something is being lost ever more suddenly.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I've been getting back to reading more philosophy, I'm co-reading Bloom's Closing of the American Mind and Plato's Republic and it's just pathetic how accurate Bloom's critique of education and how foreign Plato is to so many students.

I tend to think we live in very ignorant times.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by peter12

The philosophy of religion is incredibly important to our health as a society and it's something is being lost ever more suddenly.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I've been getting back to reading more philosophy, I'm co-reading Bloom's Closing of the American Mind and Plato's Republic and it's just pathetic how accurate Bloom's critique of education and how foreign Plato is to so many students.

I tend to think we live in very ignorant times.

Agreed... maybe a little less lousy CanCon novels/poetry and a little more Plato and yes, the Bible. (As Historical Philosophy, not religious text. I learned more about the Bible in Political Science than I ever did in Catholic School).

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Agreed... maybe a little less lousy CanCon novels/poetry and a little more Plato and yes, the Bible. (As Historical Philosophy, not religious text. I learned more about the Bible in Political Science than I ever did in Catholic School).

Did you ever take any political philosophy with Cooper? That guy is an educator.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by peter12

Did you ever take any political philosophy with Cooper? That guy is an educator.

I took a Political Philosophy course, but it was with Len Wilson. Unfortunately, I was never able to take a class from Cooper, but I heard a lot of good things from him.

I took Property and Justice as well, that was a serious eye opener on the bible, and how valuable it is if you look for messages, rather than blind dogma.

[Bobblehead]

I don't think ANY education system can win.

There are valid reasons to support more humanities in school.

There are also reasons to support more phys ed.

Or more math.

Or smaller class sizes.

Unless you want to make the school days longer, you can't have more of something without less of something else, and whatever you cut will have someone somewhere crying foul.

I think the public system is doing the best it can within the constraints put upon it, and adding more constraints only hinders the education system even more.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

how many of you who answered me are parents?

I am, but since I named one of my kids after the Devil, feel free to use that against me...

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Notification and the right to withdraw your child from education willy-nilly aren't the same thing at all.

I guess what I dispute is the notion that this is a "right" in a fundamental sense at all. Parents don't own their children. Period. Children are human beings who own themselves. Parents have a duty toward their children, not a right to control them or what they learn. As soon as you accept the notion that teaching subject X somehow infringes on the rights of a person who isn't even in the room when it's being taught, you vastly over-complicate the project of a public education, which has a very specific and special purpose. Personally, I don't want parents, some of whom might have an itchy "outrage-trigger," anywhere near that process.

I work in education and have for a long time. Giving them credit over parents is comedy hour. They know what they are doing? They may have indeed attended an institution and got a degree or two but converting that to they know what they are doing--Nope. I could write for hours on the pathetic curriculum's, hopeless inept teachers, stupid new inititatives and on and on and on. I have zero difficulty understanding why dang near every parent I know is hunting down options for private schools, charter schools and any other option. Don't put the public education system up there on any pedestal. You better want them in the process cause sooner rather than later the number of charter schools alone will be ballooning even faster than they are now.

I've had my own kids in private school every chance I get/can afford. One of the best things is the far greater parent say in what goes on/is taught etc. All kinds of opt out's included. Everything for special times/classes/exams etc. for hockey players et. al. to more fine arts and top notch teachers paid more than the herd in the public schools. Discipline alone enough of a factor for me to not put my kids in public school. I tried my one son after we got back from China in a nearby school and during a performance the kids were unruly and noisy and the teachers sat there with their fingers up their noses. He was out the next day.

Yep I'll be making the decisions concerning my children's education and they will very much be better for my kid's.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I work in education and have for a long time. Giving them credit over parents is comedy hour. They know what they are doing? They may have indeed attended an institution and got a degree or two but converting that to they know what they are doing--Nope. I could write for hours on the pathetic curriculum's, hopeless inept teachers, stupid new inititatives and on and on and on. I have zero difficulty understanding why dang near every parent I know is hunting down options for private schools, charter schools and any other option. Don't put the public education system up there on any pedestal. You better want them in the process cause sooner rather than later the number of charter schools alone will be ballooning even faster than they are now.

I've had my own kids in private school every chance I get/can afford. One of the best things is the far greater parent say in what goes on/is taught etc. All kinds of opt out's included. Everything for special times/classes/exams etc. for hockey players et. al. to more fine arts and top notch teachers paid more than the herd in the public schools. Discipline alone enough of a factor for me to not put my kids in public school. I tried my one son after we got back from China in a nearby school and during a performance the kids were unruly and noisy and the teachers sat there with their fingers up their noses. He was out the next day.

Yep I'll be making the decisions concerning my children's education and they will very much be better for my kid's.

Fine. But making that decision isn't really what we're talking about. We're talking about treating school curricula as if they were an a la carte menu where you can pick and choose the parts that you like.

Trusting parents with that kind of power is even funnier in my view. There are plenty of "parents" who couldn't find their own ass with both hands and a flashlight, and we expect them to decide how their children are going to learn in a public school setting? I don't think so. In that case, their children have a "right" to a better education than what their parents can provide.

EDIT: And as long as we're playing "name that logical fallacy," I'm going to go with the Nirvana fallacy for this one.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

I am, but since I named one of my kids after the Devil, feel free to use that against me...

Your kids name is Obama?

I kid I kid

If I ever have a kid he's going to military school. I want him killing at a university level by the time he's 12

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Your kids name is Obama?

I kid I kid

If I ever have a kid he's going to military school. I want him killing at a university level by the time he's 12

I've told the story on here before in one of the kid name threads, but I won't repeat it now since it's OT.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Fine. But making that decision isn't really what we're talking about. We're talking about treating school curricula as if they were an a la carte menu where you can pick and choose the parts that you like.

Trusting parents with that kind of power is even funnier in my view. There are plenty of "parents" who couldn't find their own ass with both hands and a flashlight, and we expect them to decide how their children are going to learn in a public school setting? I don't think so. In that case, their children have a "right" to a better education than what their parents can provide.

No it's exactly what we are talking about. These private and charter schools are doing just that with the a la carte menu. They are filled with the son's and daughters of every elite you can name and everybody else who can get them in . And guess what they want to be able to pick and choose and opt out. Heck they will opt out of field trips for a host of reasons(religious ones being just one of many). You might find it funny. But I've never met a parent who does. They can't get them into a charter or private school fast enough. The competition to get them into these schools is fierce. And they sit on the boards and wield plenty of power. That they are better than public schools isn't even a discussion--it's a slam dunk.

Your view of educators is seriously off. It ain't the hallowed halls of academia we are talking about--this is the school down the road and there is plenty of reasons why they have been called sad. More choices and ability to influence and opt out are bad--funny how many people with kids are banging down the doors trying to get their kids in to just that system.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

No it's exactly what we are talking about. These private and charter schools are doing just that with the a la carte menu. They are filled with the son's and daughters of every elite you can name and everybody else who can get them in . And guess what they want to be able to pick and choose and opt out. Heck they will opt out of field trips for a host of reasons(religious ones being just one of many). You might find it funny. But I've never met a parent who does. They can't get them into a charter or private school fast enough. The competition to get them into these schools is fierce. And they sit on the boards and wield plenty of power. That they are better than public schools isn't even a discussion--it's a slam dunk.

Your view of educators is seriously off. It ain't the hallowed halls of academia we are talking about--this is the school down the road and there is plenty of reasons why they have been called sad. More choices and ability to influence and opt out are bad--funny how many people with kids are banging down the doors trying to get their kids in to just that system.

1. I know this is the internet, but you CAN have an argument without being rude. It's possible; you may even like it.

2. Trust me--I have a clear eyed vision of the problems in public education. No system is perfect--nor should we ask it to be. That's called (as I referenced in my post above) the "Nirvana fallacy"--where a system's imperfection is cited as a reason for scrapping it altogether, and in this case replacing it with one that has all the problems of the original and then some.

The fact is, the problems in public education primary have to do with resources. If you choose to put your kids in private school, that's your right--but the reason they may get a better education there is simple, and it has nothing to do with you micromanaging the teacher. (though the school may use that prospect as bait to lure you into spending your money there) It has to do with better resources, which comes down to more money. In this case it's your money--and I salute you for being willing to spend it on something very important.

But in essence--yes, I do find the scenario you describe funny. Very funny. Here's why: what you suggest is that legions of parents decide to spend thousands of dollars a year to pay for a private educator who is qualified to design a curriculum and supplied with the resources to give your child a good education on that basis. Then, because of religious convictions or just an interfering personality, those same parents decide that what they're really paying for is the right to NOT educate their children in this school that is costing them thousands of dollars.

Might as well dig a hole in your backyard and start shoveling money into it. Why pay good money for the right to not educate your child in certain subjects? But you know what they say about fools and their money.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

1. I know this is the internet, but you CAN have an argument without being rude. It's possible; you may even like it.

2. Trust me--I have a clear eyed vision of the problems in public education. No system is perfect--nor should we ask it to be. That's called (as I referenced in my post above) the "Nirvana fallacy"--where a system's imperfection is cited as a reason for scrapping it altogether, and in this case replacing it with one that has all the problems of the original and then some.

The fact is, the problems in public education primary have to do with resources. If you choose to put your kids in private school, that's your right--but the reason they may get a better education there is simple, and it has nothing to do with you micromanaging the teacher. (though the school may use that prospect as bait to lure you into spending your money there) It has to do with better resources, which comes down to more money. In this case it's your money--and I salute you for being willing to spend it on something very important.

But in essence--yes, I do find the scenario you describe funny. Very funny. Here's why: what you suggest is that legions of parents decide to spend thousands of dollars a year to pay for a private educator who is qualified to design a curriculum and supplied with the resources to give your child a good education on that basis. Then, because of religious convictions or just an interfering personality, those same parents decide that what they're really paying for is the right to NOT educate their children in this school that is costing them thousands of dollars.

Might as well dig a hole in your backyard and start shoveling money into it. Why pay good money for the right to not educate your child in certain subjects? But you know what they say about fools and their money.

That they choose to take their kids out for any reason is their choice. That you think you can decide what is right for their children is not your choice. Charter schools are a branch of the public system. Their claim to fame is not resources or money. It's giving parents what they want. If they want their child educated in Mandarin then that's what they want as just one example. If they would rather their kid played sports all day and their academics was fit in as they saw fit then good for them. As for the fools comment those fools are the cream of the crop. Some of the smartest people you will ever meet and they have decided their children will get not only a better education but filtered as they see fit.

I've heard the academia argument before. Amazing how many times it comes from people removed from the scene or those without kids. Then you find out the ones with kids have their kids in private school. Well yes I believe in the public school but little Johnny has a special gift for the piano and so well we had to put him in.

Sorry but I'm here on the ground floor and I don't hear what you are saying coming from parents. Not at all. They want the public system if that's where their kids are to bend to them. Thus a new charter school popping up it seems like every other day. My wife is in education as well. Her school is being converted over to a TLS(traditional learning school). Rather than howling from the populace over how narrow minded it is to just stick to the basics it's a battle royal over getting kids into the school.

The everybody should do the same thing and take the same courses is on the way out. Opting out is in bigtime. Opting in to more of one and less of the others is in bigtime as well. I'd get used to it because it ain't changing anytime soon.