Thoughts on suicide

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by DESS

I think we should let this thread die.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

You honestly have to be the only person left on CP that thinks I'm a troll.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by DESS

You honestly have to be the only person left on CP that thinks I'm a troll.

Really? After you post in a thread about suicide that we should 'let this thread die'?

You slay me DESS.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

You slay me DESS.

punny....very punny

[DESS]

Give me a break. It was an off-colour remark, not trolling. You've been throwing that word around with respect to half of my posts for months now.

Anyway, I was serious. It's a depressing topic and we've covered all the angles. Let's move on.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Seconded. Depression really is a silent killer that cuts across social lines, and it's astonishing the ignorance our society has toward mental illness. Anyone who thinks a suicide who suffered from depression was "selfish" needs to give their head a shake.

I don't view them as "selfish" but I think we're missing the boat a bit if we don't think a good many of these people aren't making a choice.

Some in this thread have flat out stated that suicide isn't a choice.

Yet we can see many instances where that isn't true.

We give medals to people who fall on grenades or willingly put themselves in a hopeless position to save others, some with only a second of thought and others as the result of careful planning.

We can believe the stereotype that people like Mohammed Atta are mentally deranged when the term "brainwashed" might be better . . . . in the case of the latter it's a conscious decision to believe in something and sacrifice one's life for that cause after meticulous planning.

I know of one person with depression issues who has told me of "plans" to "off herself" at age 70. She's 50 now. (yes, she's under care for her issues).

About 10 years ago, the FAA determined that the pilot of an Egyptian Air flight deliberately pushed the yoke of his aircraft forward and, after a cockpit struggle, plowed the plane and passengers into the Atlantic Ocean. The verdict of suicide was so anathema to Egyptian culture, however, that formal diplomatic protests were lodged and riots broke out. Something about Muslims not being capable of suicide for personal reasons.

We know that people in extreme pain as a result of chronic illness will choose to end their lives.

The latter is instructive because it's basically a deliberate and considered decision to relieve unrelievable pain.

On the other hand, one of the people I knew who committed suicide stabbed herself 14 times, which sounds pretty excessive on the pain quotient.

The point in my post would be that I think it's wrong to make a blanket statement about mental illness relieving someone of the responsibility of "choice."

Clearly there are choices made in some or many of these instances, just as you might be right to say that others are too sick to understand the import of their actions.

Cowperson

[peter12]

nm

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The point in my post would be that I think it's wrong to make a blanket statement about mental illness relieving someone of the responsibility of "choice."

Clearly there are choices made in some or many of these instances, just as you might be right to say that others are too sick to understand the import of their actions.

Cowperson

Some of your examples seem to me to be a different species of "suicide," but I'll let that rest. I quoted the portion above, because it seems to me that this is where you go off-track a little bit--because of two things:
1. The organ you use to make choices is your brain. In a mentally ill person, it is the brain that is diseased. This affects their ability to make good decisions.
2. It's not "too sick to understand"--it's that their ability to comprehend actions, understand their lives or even engage with reality is in severe cases quite impaired. A better way to say it is "too sick to comprehend the alternatives to suicide." Again--it's your brain that allows you to weigh options and pick the best one. When your brain is diseased, that ability is seriously compromised.

I also reject the idea that depressed people kill themselves to relieve pain. As you say, there is often no "painless" way to do it anyway--but more importantly, the "rational" reason is in a sense irrelevant. Suicide is a symptom of a disease--and as such isn't really one thing or another in a moral sense. The easiest way to know this for sure is to look to all of the people in the world whose lives are complete, unending misery--and to realize how few of them actually kill themselves. The conclusion has to be this: suicide depends very little on external factors, and largely on internal ones--though there can be external triggers.

Calling suicide "selfish" is just one of those comforting, judgemental security-blankets people use as a way of avoiding something that's uncomfortable to understand--that our brains, like the rest of our bodies, are imperfect organs that sometimes malfunction--and sometimes kill us.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Seconded. Depression really is a silent killer that cuts across social lines, and it's astonishing the ignorance our society has toward mental illness. Anyone who thinks a suicide who suffered from depression was "selfish" needs to give their head a shake.

But then there are those people who kill themselves over losing money or for being caught for commiting a crime, and things like that. Are they mentally ill or selfish?

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by redforever

Mental illness does not know boundaries like income level of the family, social issues within the family, schools people attended, whatever. Mental illness presents itself in every cross section of society.

This is no different than cancer, heart disease, ....... whatever.

I skimmed the thread (as its depressing as hell) so I am not sure what you exactly mean by "mental illness", but I know 2 people who have been diagnosed with "bi-polar" disorder. And if their problem is clinical, it was self medicated.

In both cases, the problem stems from a general lack of drive, chronic laziness, chronic "feel sorry for myself" syndrom; almost all brought on by parents who treated their kid like the centre of the universe instead of teaching them life values.

As I said before, I cannot make a blanket generalization of all "bi-polar" cases but from my own experience, those 2 cases were simply a medical cop-out for inherit laziness and a general attitude of jacka$$edness. However, I find these days the medical community in general (who for some reason seems to be immune to critisizm) seems to want to define everything by a disorder, or disease, or deficiency in some sort of cellular or genetic makeup.

Sometimes things are exactly the way they look. The fact is some people are just f'd up and they cannot be defined or explained.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

But then there are those people who kill themselves over losing money or for being caught for commiting a crime, and things like that. Are they mentally ill or selfish?

Those can be triggering events, but the conventional wisdom in psychiatric medicine is that it's rarely the only problem. Consider that the vast majority of people who have to go to jail or who lose all their money actually don't kill themselves.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I skimmed the thread (as its depressing as hell) so I am not sure what you exactly mean by "mental illness", but I know 2 people who have been diagnosed with "bi-polar" disorder. And if their problem is clinical, it was self medicated.

In both cases, the problem stems from a general lack of drive, chronic laziness, chronic "feel sorry for myself" syndrom; almost all brought on by parents who treated their kid like the centre of the universe instead of teaching them life values.

As I said before, I cannot make a blanket generalization of all "bi-polar" cases but from my own experience, those 2 cases were simply a medical cop-out for inherit laziness and a general attitude of jacka$$edness. However, I find these days the medical community in general (who for some reason seems to be immune to critisizm) seems to want to define everything by a disorder, or disease, or deficiency in some sort of cellular or genetic makeup.

Sometimes things are exactly the way they look. The fact is some people are just f'd up and they cannot be defined or explained.

Must be windy up on that high horse.

The good news for you is this: only stupidity is permanent. Ignorance can be temporary, if you'll allow it to be.

[Aeneas]

I have someone very close to me who is depressed, to such a degree that he must stay in a medical facility. He tried to kill himself, and told doctors that all he could think about was how to do it.

Now he is frustrated because he is hospitalized, medicated and unable to harm himself. Still, he asked for his favorite moccasins to be brought and he was found trying to hang himself with the laces.

When he is more lucid all he talks about is how ashamed he is.

Still, he admits even when he is feeling a little better, that it's hard not to be thinking of how to do it.

He managed to get an escorted visit to a shopping centre with some other patients. He threw himself over the railing from the second floor. His injuries were substantial (he is not young).

When he recovered a little, he was disappointed that it would now be harder. ie no more passes for walking trips, plus many months recovery for his injuries.

He does have some great things to live for and admits it, he says he just can't help thinking about it.

Before the institution, he said he couldn't even get out of bed in the mornings as he could see no reason to bother.

Depressed yes, selfish I don't think so. It is an illness, one that he doesn't understand.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Aeneas

<snip>

Depressed yes, selfish I don't think so. It is an illness, one that he doesn't understand.

Quite a story, I sympathize. I would let the guy let himself go, personally.

By "selfish" I mean those who off themselves leaving behind questions, problems and years of anguish and wondering for many, many loved ones. In some cases (i.e. losing a family to a vehicle accident) I can sympathize, those depressed to those levels, sure. But for those who go off with too many people relying on them or leave behind questions and a mess... and as much as I do sympathize with them, I do think its selfish.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by DESS

Give me a break. It was an off-colour remark, not trolling. You've been throwing that word around with respect to half of my posts for months now.

Anyway, I was serious. It's a depressing topic and we've covered all the angles. Let's move on.

That's kind of weird, when I look at all the threads here, I have this feature that allows me to not click on a thread if I don't want to read it. You should see if your computer has that feature, instead of trying to police which threads are worthy of discussion, and which which aren't. Loser.

[pepper24]

Permanent solution to a temporary solution is my option on suicide and it's unfortunate that folks that choose this root don't consider this. Obviously, they aren't in a capable state. The effect on the loved ones you leave behind is a big burden.

Luckily, I have never had to deal with someone close who's committed suicide.

[redforever]

For those of you who perhaps do not understand mental illness .... perhaps this analogy might help.

Most of us on this earth are given some malady or condition that we have to come to terms with and cope with.

As an example, one that strikes every cross section of society is cancer. So often we see these people go through various treatments, it seems that each round of treatment seems to get worse and all too often the cancer returns with a vengeance. We see them suffer so much, their will to live is so strong, but in the end, in too many cases, they succumb.....

And what do we hear people say? Or what do we read in the paper? That they were brave to the end and they fought a hard battle...

Now for those of us who have witnessed someone suffering through mental illness....

Well, we see the same things. Each day brings a new battle for them.... they fight so hard to stay above water and win that battle, they try various treatments.....yet the next day, they might wake up and they still have to fight the same enemy...sometimes they win...but sometimes they don't and suicide is the result.

But what do we see in the paper now? The person passed away suddenly? And what do people talk about? Do we hear that they fought a hard battle? That they gave it their all but in the end the illness was stronger than they were?

No, we hear them called cowardly and selfish.

They deserve better.

What a shame....both were up against terrible odds.....both fought the battle.....both lost.....

Yet one fought hard and was brave.....while the other was labelled a coward and selfish.

[jydk]

Originally Posted by 4X4

You can't live your life as a slave to everyone else's emotions. Being a friend is one thing, being a pushover is another. If you think that dude offed himself because you didn't rent drums and play with him, you need to realize that there were probably ten other things in his life that were worse than that (or so he felt) and jamming would have been a temporary high to distract him from the despair he was feeling.
In other words, jamming would have maybe postponed the suicide, but it would have done nothing to stop it. So you can't carry the guilt. I know it's easy for me, an anonymous internet poster to say, but seriously... It ain't your fault.

IMO, the real tragedy when someone commits suicide is the guilt that friends and family are left feeling. I'm sure sometimes it's justified, but most of the time it's not. In this case, it's not. Flameswin, again, it's not your fault. You were neither the cause or even the catalyst. It is a bit freaky to have been so close to someone that does this, but it doesn't make it your fault.

Like Cow said, it's likely that you'll know a few people over the years that do this. Some will be closer to you, some will just be associates, it's a fact of life. Maybe I'm numb to it now because off the top of my head I can recall 4 people that were fairly close that have killed themselves. All 4 were senseless. There was no real despair. They must have been mentally ill or something. Something that wasn't visible on the surface. Something that a doctor needed to prescribe meds for. Not a one of them would still be here if their friend jammed with them.

Not.Your.Fault.

Feel sad. Don't feel guilty.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Most people who say suicide is an act of cowardace/selfishness have no concept at all of the mental state of such a person. It isn't something most people can understand unless they have stood at the abyss themselves.

Making music evidently was your friend's escape from his problems. Thing is, no matter how you try to escape them, those demons are always a step behind, and slowly, but surely, they overwhelm you. You could have made all the time for him in the world and spent hours of every day working on music, but inevitably, his demons would have eaten the joy of that away too.

A suicidal person lives in an irrational world, and the guilt we feel is the impossibility of understanding it rationally. There was nothing you could do to save him - that has to happen from within. It won't be easy to do, but instead of feeling guilty at your friend's death, feel happy that you were able to bring him some joy in a life that he otherwise found unbearable.

I took the 'rentng the drums and jamming' just as a cleaver analogy to the situation that "Flameswin" was presented with.

When I was younger I always figured that if I ever did get to the depressed state where I was about to kill myself, instead I would just take off, go to some other country, and maybe rob banks to support myself, and just do crazy things that I would never have the guts to do otherwise. I figured I would have nothing to lose anyways, so why not. When you rationally think about it, and try and place yourself in the shoes of those who have commited suicide, people you knew, you realise it's not like that.
Or....maybe it is, I don't know.

[troutman]

I had to write a paper at Law School about the treatment of suicide in legal history. IIRC, it was always taboo in the Western European societies I looked at. Problem is, criminal law can't punish people who are no longer with us. Some places tried to take away the inheritance rights of the person's beneficiaries as a deterrent. I think life insurance policies are void if there is a suicide.

It is a crime in Canada to assist another to commit suicide.

http://www.answers.com/topic/suicide

[4X4]

Originally Posted by jydk

I took the 'rentng the drums and jamming' just as a cleaver analogy to the situation that "Flameswin" was presented with.

I like your post (I'd probably do the same thing) but to clarify my statement about the drums, the OP mentioned a day or two prior (in another thread), that he was afraid that not hanging with the dude might lead the guy to doing something like this. Renting drums and jamming was the activity that he was considering doing.