Europe bans Canadian seal products

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Your totally right, that is your choice and I am ok with it. What I am not ok with is inhumane treatment in slaughterhouses, watching pigs hung up and gutted alive while they swing and suffer among other sufferings that other animals go through. Anyone who thinks different go ahead and youtube a video of a slaughterhouse, there are plenty. Even worse is animals being used for medical experiments, not only is the animal put through severe trauma but most of the times the experiment fails as we are different species. If we need to move forward in medicine for cures and I think we do then why not use death row inmates or multiple life sentence criminals? You would get better results and we would not have to pay to feed criminals who have chosen that path and are no longer a use to society.

When you say things like this you are only supporting the criticism of PETA and other strident animal activists that you care about animals more than people.

That statement shows your complete ignorance to medical testing on animals. If it wasn't for medical testing on animals there is good chance you would be dead. There is a reason that our life expectancy is no longer 35 years old and that reason is because of modern medicine. Modern medicine uses animal testing. There is no way that modern medicine would have been able to achieve what it has achieved and what it will achieve without animal testing.

You may think it's ugly, but it's the best thing we got. Computer testing is in it's infancy and cannot achieve the same results as animal testing. It may one day, but it can't now, anything you've heard to the contrary is spin. If they could do it, they would be. Animal testing is the only way we can prolong the lives of our race, humans. There are very strict guidelines for animal testing. They don't let any mad scientist do it and it has to be worth while. If you want to abolish animal testing then you clearly value animals more than humans.

I couldn't care less if you don't want to eat animals, that is your choice. But saying we should stop animal testing for medical purposes is asinine. Unless you ok with living to a maximum age of 35, having most of your siblings dead, having a good chance that your mother died giving birth to you, risking death from minor injuries and aliments, and ensuring death from any severe injury or aliment then perhaps you should have been born anytime during or before the dark ages, that is if you survive from many of the common diseases that plagued societies throughout the ages that we have cures and treatments for now. Your choice.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

All living things are equal, we all have the same will to live and we should all have the same rights to life.

Even Canuck fans?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh please, this has become the ultimate silly defense for people who refuse to rationalize their behaviour. Hitler loved his dogs, he also didn't mind if some of his officers used human hair to stuff their pillows. There is an ethical discrepancy that is so very similar to avoiding the intentional slaying of wasps but condoning medical tests on prisoners. It's insane.

Well, it depends on your point of view. Seeing how innocent Jews were experimented on and some of us believe all things are equal I would say you condoning medical experiments on innocent animals has you much closer to the Nazi's then I will ever be.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Sure. I do not swat mosquito's, if I am going out camping or out in the evening I wear repellent.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't insect repellants tested on animals? Even if there's one out now that hasn't been tested on animals, I'm sure the original formula would have been.

I get the not killing of bees- they are helpful insects. But even cows- animals who will watch you kill their sibling and not raise a fuss; they swat mosquitos.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by troutman

Even Canuck fans?

unfortunately

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by peter12

Oh please, this has become the ultimate silly defense for people who refuse to rationalize their behaviour. Hitler loved his dogs, he also didn't mind if some of his officers used human hair to stuff their pillows. There is an ethical discrepancy that is so very similar to avoiding the intentional slaying of wasps but condoning medical tests on prisoners. It's insane.

I actually agree completely with your argument, and in this case, the comparison is perfectly valid.

I was just waiting for a Nazi comment from the moment the "test on prisoners" argument came up. Surprised it took so long, actually

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Sure. I do not swat mosquito's, if I am going out camping or out in the evening I wear repellent. If one did bite me I would shake it off before squishing it. I have taken medication before but that doe not change the fact that there would be better more effective medicines if the test subjects were human and not a totally different species. Thus why if the experiments are done they should be done on our own species and why we might as well use lifers as they are nothing but a burden to society. The people who in their arrogance and ignorance will say it's crazy and rediculous because they think humans have more right to live then anything else because that is what they are. All living things are equal, we all have the same will to live and we should all have the same rights to life.

Ahhhhh, I'd be willing to bet that isn't the case.
Tests on animals are done primarily to determine if a drug is safe for humans, not if it is effective. That's what human trials are for, to see if the drug works on people. The tests on animals are to make sure the drug won't kill those people.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

All living things are equal, we all have the same will to live and we should all have the same rights to life.

Would that go for a parasite eating your eyeball too?
What right would you have to take its life?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Burninator

When you say things like this you are only supporting the criticism of PETA and other strident animal activists that you care about animals more than people.

That statement shows your complete ignorance to medical testing on animals. If it wasn't for medical testing on animals there is good chance you would be dead. There is a reason that our life expectancy is no longer 35 years old and that reason is because of modern medicine. Modern medicine uses animal testing. There is no way that modern medicine would have been able to achieve what it has achieved and what it will achieve without animal testing.

You may think it's ugly, but it's the best thing we got. Computer testing is in it's infancy and cannot achieve the same results as animal testing. It may one day, but it can't now, anything you've heard to the contrary is spin. If they could do it, they would be. Animal testing is the only way we can prolong the lives of our race, humans. There are very strict guidelines for animal testing. They don't let any mad scientist do it and it has to be worth while. If you want to abolish animal testing then you clearly value animals more than humans.

I couldn't care less if you don't want to eat animals, that is your choice. But saying we should stop animal testing for medical purposes is asinine. Unless you ok with living to a maximum age of 35, having most of your siblings dead, having a good chance that your mother died giving birth to you, risking death from minor injuries and aliments, and ensuring death from any severe injury or aliment then perhaps you should have been born anytime during or before the dark ages, that is if you survive from many of the common diseases that plagued societies throughout the ages that we have cures and treatments for now. Your choice.

Do you know how many tests fail because they show great signs in those animals but fail when they are finally tested on a person? I understand where your coming from but look at both sides, how do you know that if all that research money had been used to test on life serving criminals that the advances would not be greater then what we have? The cure for cancer, even longer life expectancy, more modern medical miracles? You don't.

[troutman]

You can't spell dissentowner, without tower.

I kid.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

wow, informative! What an intelligent post. Someday you will bow to us freakin losers from hell and call us overlord!

Are you serious? Or are you kidding?

Because I'd sure like to hear the theory on this.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Ahhhhh, I'd be willing to bet that isn't the case.
Tests on animals are done primarily to determine if a drug is safe for humans, not if it is effective. That's what human trials are for, to see if the drug works on people. The tests on animals are to make sure the drug won't kill those people.

Not to mention all the base level information that we have learned from animals that we would have never learned without animal testing.

I can at least relate to arguments being made about not eating animals but the ones about animal testing flat out do not stand up.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by troutman

You can't spell dissentowner, without tower.

I kid.

I think I prefer Tower.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Sure. I do not swat mosquito's, if I am going out camping or out in the evening I wear repellent. If one did bite me I would shake it off before squishing it. I have taken medication before but that doe not change the fact that there would be better more effective medicines if the test subjects were human and not a totally different species. Thus why if the experiments are done they should be done on our own species and why we might as well use lifers as they are nothing but a burden to society. The people who in their arrogance and ignorance will say it's crazy and rediculous because they think humans have more right to live then anything else because that is what they are. All living things are equal, we all have the same will to live and we should all have the same rights to life.

Not all living things are equal. The whole concept of life isn't based around man and animal sitting around a fire eating smores and singing songs about love and friendship. Nature and evolution and survival are all based around survival of the best species. Mankind originally was pretty much a prey species to larger preditors and we evolved past them. We realized that animals provided nutrition and taste and we conquored and domesticated them. We can create weapons and tools and concepts. I'm sorry but I am right now the superior to a cow, or a chicken or a pig or a lamb because we as humans have found that they are useful to us not as equals but as sources of food and material. Who knows maybe someday the chicken will leap past us in the evolutionary scale and start seeing us as a food group.

Am I superior to most of my fellow animal carnivores. For the most part we are because we can kill them to protect ourselves or keep ourselves warm, but there are a stupid few that get picked off. Survival of the fittest in play.

And you can bet that if that poor stupid cow had a chance to get the drop on us, he wouldn't be crying about the secretness of life, he'd kill us with no hestiation because thats how life works.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

wow, informative! What an intelligent post. Someday you will bow to us freakin losers from hell and call us overlord!

I doubt it. Vegans are usually too weak from a protein deficient diet. You can usually straight arm them to the ground without too much effort.

As far as the animals being equal to humans nonsense goes... He who has thumbs has the power.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

unfortunately

Dissentowner, do you take any vitamin or supplements? Are you dependent on protein-heavy vegetables etc... that are not native to your own region?

[dissentowner]

Look, this is turning into a nasty personal thing and I don't want it to be. We have different views and beliefs, you think some of my ideas are crazy, I think some of the things already being done are crazy. I am happy the seal hunt took a blow today, I am ok with all the meat eaters, I do not like the mistreatment of animals gathered for commercial butchering or for medical experimentation. I do believe that a better solution is to try these experiments on criminals who are going to be in prison for the rest of their lives or to be executed, they serve no purpose. Someone asked what if it was my son? I would disown my son if he killed someone, I don't hate humans even though some say I do, never said that, I said we need to learn to live in harmony with other species and that any slaughter of an animal for consumption should be swift and painless.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Well, it depends on your point of view. Seeing how innocent Jews were experimented on and some of us believe all things are equal I would say you condoning medical experiments on innocent animals has you much closer to the Nazi's then I will ever be.

See, that right there is the crux of our arguments.
If you honestly can't see the difference between the value of a human life and a rat then you are seriously messed up.

Here's a little thought experiment.

You're standing next to a railroad switch. You can't stop the train, but you can send it down one of two tracks.
On one track is a person tied down, on the other is a cage or rats.

Now please don't go ahead and tell me it's a ridiculous example, because that is the point.

How many rats would have to be in the cage before you sent the train down the track with the person?
Me, I don't care how many rats there are, they're gonna get it.
You, according to the values you claim to adhere to, all it takes is two rats, hell even with 1 rat it's a coin flip which track you send it down.

Now replace the rats with kittens?
Baby Seals?
Cows?
Panda?

Does your answer change?

what if you relace the person with all of the Pandas in the world, but there are twice as many rats? Are they all still equal?

Damn, logic sure is a tough habit to kick.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Are you serious? Or are you kidding?

Because I'd sure like to hear the theory on this.

sarcasm, it's getting too hostile in here.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

sarcasm, it's getting too hostile in here.

I think you are mistaking hostility for our human bewilderment and rational outrage. You know, it's like we are a bunch of barking dogs. We're upset about something. You understand that example, right?