Thoughts on suicide

[flip]

Originally Posted by Dion

Maybe it's not a disase by your definition - no problem. The point i tried to make is that suicide is not a choice. Rational minded people don't chose to end thier life. They want to live and live life to it's fullest. We're talking about a mental illness that distorts a persons thinking. An emotional pain that becomes so strong that it drives them to kill themselves.

I agree, I was just sayin.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flip

Ok well that doesn't meet the definition of disease but ok. Disorder maybe but suicide (much like alcoholism) is not a disease.

It is the result of a disease just like all too often, death is the result of cancer.

Disease can be mental or physical.

Until the stigma and all the stereo types of suicide go away, unfortunely there will still be people who say it was selfish.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flip

I agree, I was just sayin.

Fair enough

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bibtin Tex

it;s not your fault

if they committed suicide they were obviously suffering so i doubt that anything you did or didn't do had much of an effect on their emotional state

if you knew that they were depressed you probably should have tried to help them by getting the to a hospital so they don't hurt themselves, but again it's not your fault, it was their own fault for not finding the proper help among doctors or family + friends

That's the conclusion I've been trying to come to, but it may take a bit of time.

The problem with this situation, is that we made some music together a while ago, and he was pumped and mentioned that singing those songs was a release, and the best he'd felt in a long time.

So when he wanted to get back into it, he looked to me, and said he needed to play those songs to feel good again, and said it had to be me specifically. The problem is, he's really driven when it comes to his music, so it wouldn't have been as easy as me renting some drums and us jamming here and there, he would again, see it as the only thing important in his life, and would have needed to jam 4 or 5 nights a week, and would have expected to be be playing shows every weekend, and I'm at a stage where I can't commit to that anymore.

So for me, it was a commitment that would have weighed me down, and strained everything else I enjoy, but I also had no idea he was that bad.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flip

Like I said though, in the end it was his choice and I don't blame him. Just accept the fact that your friend made an irreversible decision and it was one that your friend made despite your willingness to help. If their life was so horrible maybe they are happier in death than in life.

I guess my point is don't let it get you down. Everyone always says things will get better, well your friend obviously couldn't see that. Everyone says there are other options, well your friend obviously didn't see that. What I'm trying to say is that only people who aren't suicidal say stupid crap like that. Maybe your friend genuinely thought his life wasn't getting any better and wasn't going to. Respect his decision, albeit crappy.


On a side note at least they actually meant to commit suicide. I knew of a guy, about a year after my friend killed himself, who was found naked in his room, wearing all of his hockey medals, with a tie around his neck...and his hand around his junk. Dude was doing auto-erotic asphyxiation and choked himself a little too hard. Try explaining that to a bunch of 16/17 year olds.

It might be a so called "choice", but it is far from a rational choice. In the case of suicide, the mental illness takes away the ability to be rational.

As far as auto-erotic asphyxiation, that can end up in death. But most of those deaths have nothing to do with sucide. They have all to do with gratification gone all wrong.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flameswin

That's the conclusion I've been trying to come to, but it may take a bit of time.

The problem with this situation, is that we made some music together a while ago, and he was pumped and mentioned that singing those songs was a release, and the best he'd felt in a long time.

So when he wanted to get back into it, he looked to me, and said he needed to play those songs to feel good again, and said it had to be me specifically. The problem is, he's really driven when it comes to his music, so it wouldn't have been as easy as me renting some drums and us jamming here and there, he would again, see it as the only thing important in his life, and would have needed to jam 4 or 5 nights a week, and would have expected to be be playing shows every weekend, and I'm at a stage where I can't commit to that anymore.

So for me, it was a commitment that would have weighed me down, and strained everything else I enjoy, but I also had no idea he was that bad.

Because of the stigma and great ignorance that surrounds mental illness, many people will say they are fine like your friend did. They will go to great lengths to avoid being mocked or ridiculed for what they have. In many cases it's the stigma that prevents them from reaching out for help.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flameswin

So for me, it was a commitment that would have weighed me down, and strained everything else I enjoy, but I also had no idea he was that bad.

You also have your own health to take care of.

There's nothing wrong with setting personal boundries that addresses that and you should never feel guilty about that..

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

You really can't blame yourself. Have you considered seeking out support resources to help you deal with this guilt?

I don't believe I'll need an professional help. Because this a message board, I'm saying everything that comes to my mind, and I may come off a little more traumatized than I really am.

I think more than anything, I just need to do everything I normally do to get my mind off it.

Unfortunitly, summer hockey doesn't start until May 12, playing hockey usually gets my mind off stuff, and it would be nice to just be in a dressing room getting suited up and not thinking about this.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flameswin

That's the conclusion I've been trying to come to, but it may take a bit of time.

The problem with this situation, is that we made some music together a while ago, and he was pumped and mentioned that singing those songs was a release, and the best he'd felt in a long time.

So when he wanted to get back into it, he looked to me, and said he needed to play those songs to feel good again, and said it had to be me specifically. The problem is, he's really driven when it comes to his music, so it wouldn't have been as easy as me renting some drums and us jamming here and there, he would again, see it as the only thing important in his life, and would have needed to jam 4 or 5 nights a week, and would have expected to be be playing shows every weekend, and I'm at a stage where I can't commit to that anymore.

So for me, it was a commitment that would have weighed me down, and strained everything else I enjoy, but I also had no idea he was that bad.

It is normal for you to feel guilt, this person is obviously someone who was a big part of your life at some point in time.

I think in order for you to get rid of your guilt, you will have to make a list of what things you actually have control of in your life. And you know what? The list of things we actually have any control over is very short.

You are probably having trouble with that list right now and your mind is trying to tell you that you had some control over the situation, if only if....

But it is not your fault and this is something that was out of your control. Talk it through with a professional...they can help you find the answers.

[Resolute 14]

Most people who say suicide is an act of cowardace/selfishness have no concept at all of the mental state of such a person. It isn't something most people can understand unless they have stood at the abyss themselves.

Making music evidently was your friend's escape from his problems. Thing is, no matter how you try to escape them, those demons are always a step behind, and slowly, but surely, they overwhelm you. You could have made all the time for him in the world and spent hours of every day working on music, but inevitably, his demons would have eaten the joy of that away too.

A suicidal person lives in an irrational world, and the guilt we feel is the impossibility of understanding it rationally. There was nothing you could do to save him - that has to happen from within. It won't be easy to do, but instead of feeling guilty at your friend's death, feel happy that you were able to bring him some joy in a life that he otherwise found unbearable.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

You really can't blame yourself. Have you considered seeking out support resources to help you deal with this guilt?

I guess the only really big problem I've been having is the mental images. I keep having one of him singing, then it cuts to an image of him laying dead in his jeep.

In the last day or so, I've been thinking about the great songs we made and how they're gone, so I take it those images are symbolizing our songs songs dying with him.

[flamesfever]

If you do decide to seek help, you may consider the Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA) in Calgary. I believe they have a support group for people struggling with suicide issues.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

If you do decide to seek help, you may consider the Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA) in Calgary. I believe they have a support group for people struggling with suicide issues.

Wouldn't that be for people who are feeling suicidel? Or is it for the people dealing a friends suicide also?

[feartheflames]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

a cowardly act, give it time and even the worse can fix itself.

That just shows how uninformed you are about depression.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Wouldn't that be for people who are feeling suicidel? Or is it for the people dealing a friends suicide also?

Either.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

A suicidal person lives in an irrational world, and the guilt we feel is the impossibility of understanding it rationally. There was nothing you could do to save him - that has to happen from within. It won't be easy to do, but instead of feeling guilty at your friend's death, feel happy that you were able to bring him some joy in a life that he otherwise found unbearable.

That's a good way to look at it. This whole thing actualy reminds of 'Into the Wild', if anyone here has seen it, you'll know what I'm talking about. You know that smile the guy has on his face as he dies alone in the wild?..and they make a point of showing you this smile a few times throughout the movie, because he gets it when he is truley happy.

That's kind of what this guy had. He didn't look depressed when he wasn't playing music, but he didn't look really happy either. Then when we were in the middle of a song and got to a good part, he'd get this big smile that you'd never see otherwise, it was a "yes, I'm truley living right now!" kind of smile. Which I guess is weird to type, given what happened.

[jayswin]

Man, what a weird message board CP is, where I feel comfortable talking about something like this with a bunch of people I've never met.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Man, what a weird message board CP is, where I feel comfortable talking about something like this with a bunch of people I've never met.

That quite often is the case with many problems in life. Other people don't see the subjective issues that you are engulfed in and they don't have the emotional baggage at stake.

It is quite often easier to be objective from a distance that it is from close up. And that is why a professional quite often can give you very unbiased answers that will help you deal with the situation.

[J pold]

Admittedly I know very little about suicide/depression. It really surprises me how many people in this thread have been close with someone who has committed suicide. Personally I've never had a friend kill himself, I've herd stories of friend of a friend. I often wonder how one can be around a depressed person by choice. Obviously if it's a friend or family member you want to support them but on the other had scientific studies have concluded that you will on some level internalize the behavior of the people you surround yourself with.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud here, not really to the point of the thread. flameswin I'm sorry to hear about your friend and even more sorry for the position you are currently in. The advice given by Cowperson and echo my own sentiments.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by J pold

Admittedly I know very little about suicide/depression. It really surprises me how many people in this thread have been close with someone who has committed suicide. Personally I've never had a friend kill himself, I've herd stories of friend of a friend. I often wonder how one can be around a depressed person by choice. Obviously if it's a friend or family member you want to support them but on the other had scientific studies have concluded that you will on some level internalize the behavior of the people you surround yourself with.

Plain and simple, because in most of the cases, the depression is disguised and not seen.