Space Explosion Is Farthest Thing Ever Seen

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Jesus tells me that the solar system is only 300 years old, and it fits into the palm of his hand, hopefully he doesn't have fits of spontaneous applause..

Queue Troutman with the lyrics....

[photon]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

What's outside this ever-expanding universe?

Another ever-expanding universe? And what's beyond that?

What if the universe isn't the boundary of everything?

Time to go home and kick the dog.

Cowperson

Asking what's outside the expanding universe is like asking what's north of the north pole, the question doesn't really apply.

There's different ideas as to the true nature of the universe's shape. It could be finite and bounded (like the surface of a sphere or a torus, you go far enough eventually you'll get back to where you began), but we don't see any evidence of this in repetition of patterns of galaxies, so if it is it's bigger than the visible universe. It could also be infinite (yes, an infinite universe can expand) and unbounded. It could also be perfectly flat, but that's unlikely (though from measurements we know it's very close to flat).

But we may never know since as onetwo_threefour points out we're limited to how much of the universe we can see, forever.

[T@T]

[Hemi-Cuda]

oh god, this is going to be one of those space time threads that makes my head want to explode. i'm out

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by photon

Asking what's outside the expanding universe is like asking what's north of the north pole, the question doesn't really apply.

There's different ideas as to the true nature of the universe's shape. It could be finite and bounded (like the surface of a sphere or a torus, you go far enough eventually you'll get back to where you began), but we don't see any evidence of this in repetition of patterns of galaxies, so if it is it's bigger than the visible universe. It could also be infinite (yes, an infinite universe can expand) and unbounded. It could also be perfectly flat, but that's unlikely (though from measurements we know it's very close to flat).

But we may never know since as onetwo_threefour points out we're limited to how much of the universe we can see, forever.

The big bang created an outwardly expanding bubble, a universe. So I actually agree with your North Pole analogy when we are talking about this particular universe.

However, if you were standing at the North Pole and looked straight up, you would realize there IS another direction to go.

I asked what lies beyond the universe which would be the same as asking what is above the North Pole.

We know about this Big Bang and this universe. Are there other Big Bangs and other universes? What is our universe expanding into? If it's nothingness, then how far does nothingness extend or do we eventually hit something or find something?

Are there other universes and other big bangs, not in other dimensions, but in this one?

What lies beyond our expanding universe?

Cowperson

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I asked what lies beyond the universe which would be the same as asking what is above the North Pole.

But that assumes there are only 3 dimensions. What if there are more- like a lot more?

So to go back to the globe analogy, let's say there is a 2 dimensional person, and he goes for a walk one day. He walks in 1 direction and eventually gets back to where he started. Because he cannot comprehend the concept of a sphere, he cannot understand how this happened. And if we could talk to him, and we told him to look up, he wouldn't know what we are talking about. He would just accept that his world was infinate; because a 3 dimensional world cannot be defined in 2 dimensions.

[CaptainCrunch]

You ask excellent questions Cowperson, and I leave it up to you . . . to find the answers.

[Table 5]

Cowpersons question is the one ive always puzzled over as well, and I just don't understand any explanation thats given to me. Logically, you need something to expand into. And even if there is something to expand into, what's beyond that? And beyond that?

In the end, I'm pretty sure none of us should even exist.

[evman150]

Notwithstanding theories about "multiverses", which are at this point untestable, all that exists is the universe.

So saying "What lies beyond our expanding universe?" is a little like saying "What lies outside the baseball stadium inside the baseball stadium?". Or "what is the largest integer from 1-10 that is not 1-10?".

We are dealing with a complete set, actually THE complete set, outside of which nothing exists, only because we define the set as everything. Something existing outside of everything is nonsense.

What is it expanding into? Itself is the best answer. There is no medium it is stretching in. Space itself is stretching, so to speak. We never hit anything, there is no "nothingness" or otherwise. Just space stretching.

The north pole example does not obtain. If you're going to say "what is above X", the location of X is arbitrary. You're shifting the parameters of your thought experiment in an ad hoc manner. You can't go more north than the north pole. "Up" is not north.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by evman150

Notwithstanding theories about "multiverses", which are at this point untestable, all that exists is the universe.

So saying "What lies beyond our expanding universe?" is a little like saying "What lies outside the baseball stadium inside the baseball stadium?". Or "what is the largest integer from 1-10 that is not 1-10?".

We are dealing with a complete set, actually THE complete set, outside of which nothing exists, only because we define the set as everything. Something existing outside of everything is nonsense.

What is it expanding into? Itself is the best answer. There is no medium it is stretching in. Space itself is stretching, so to speak. We never hit anything, there is no "nothingness" or otherwise. Just space stretching.

The north pole example does not obtain. If you're going to say "what is above X", the location of X is arbitrary. You're shifting the parameters of your thought experiment in an ad hoc manner. You can't go more north than the north pole. "Up" is not north.

I think I just blew your mind.

Again, there was a big bang. The resulting universe is expanding outward.

Photon is right to say that if I took a long walk around the outside of our universe I'd end up in the same place, the North Pole, because I'm walking on a bubble.

That's not what I'm asking about.

The universe is expanding into an emptiness. Or empty as far as we know.

Even as I stand stationary at the North Pole of the Universe, I would be moving outwards into this empty space because I'm standing on the bubble of the expanding universe.

So, what am I moving into?

How far does "nothing" extend?

Are there other big bangs and other expanding universes, in this dimension, also expanding outward into nothing? Perhaps closing the gap with our universe as an example.

Do universes, like galaxies, eventually collide? Is it just a bigger example of something that already seems collossally large in scale?

What lies beyond our universe, in this dimension?

I'd love to know how far "nothing" really goes. How big is nothing? And, come to think of it, what lies beyond "nothing?"

Cowperson

[troutman]

Multiverses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I think I just blew your mind.

Again, there was a big bang. The resulting universe is expanding outward.

Photon is right to say that if I took a long walk around the outside of our universe I'd end up in the same place, the North Pole, because I'm walking on a bubble.

That's not what I'm asking about.

The universe is expanding into an emptiness. Or empty as far as we know.

Even as I stand stationary at the North Pole of the Universe, I would be moving outwards into this empty space because I'm standing on the bubble of the expanding universe.

So, what am I moving into?

How far does "nothing" extend?

Are there other big bangs and other expanding universes, in this dimension, also expanding outward into nothing? Perhaps closing the gap with our universe as an example.

Do universes, like galaxies, eventually collide? Is it just a bigger example of something that already seems collossally large in scale?

What lies beyond our universe, in this dimension?

I'd love to know how far "nothing" really goes. How big is nothing? And, come to think of it, what lies beyond "nothing?"

Cowperson

It's turtles all the way down man.

[CaptainCrunch]

In my mind we're pushing into nothingness with no limits, but as the old saying the universe despises a vacuum.

there always has to be something that acts as a place holder, our universe has matter and other substances, space in not a pure vacuum.

Therefore it stands to reason that whatever we're pushing into cannot be a vacuum as there is already a place holder (our universe) in that vacuum or empty space or whatever, so it stands to reason that like life on this planet, our universe is not along in the nothingness.

Someday we might here the backup horn of another even larger growing universe just before it flattens us out of existance.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Again, there was a big bang. The resulting universe is expanding outward.

I don't think "outward" is the right way to think about it, as that implies an outward to expand into which afawk doesn't exist, and it also implies an inward which also isn't accurate.

For expanding, just think that everything is getting further from everything else.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Photon is right to say that if I took a long walk around the outside of our universe I'd end up in the same place, the North Pole, because I'm walking on a bubble.

The universe isn't a bubble though, when I used the analogy of a sphere of the earth and there's no north of the north pole, imagine the entire universe being contained on the surface of that sphere. There is no up or down, nothing exists beyond the surface of the sphere. You can go in any direction on the sphere and end up back where you started, but you can't go up or down.

Similarly if our universe is finite and bounded, you could go in any direction in 3 dimensions and eventually end up back where you started (well not necessarily because of expansion, but assuming you could stop time).

The bubble visualization isn't accurate, you couldn't walk around the outside of the universe because there (as far as we know and can theorize anyway) IS no outside of the universe.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The universe is expanding into an emptiness. Or empty as far as we know.

Nope, it's simply expanding. If you have a balloon, and you blow it up, the surface is expanding. From the point of view of the surface of the balloon, you aren't expanding into anything. Points of the surface of the balloon are getting further apart.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Are there other big bangs and other expanding universes, in this dimension, also expanding outward into nothing? Perhaps closing the gap with our universe as an example.

That we don't know. There's different ideas about it, some ideas have new universes being spawned from black holes in different dimensions, some have many universes being parallel but separate from each other in higher dimensions, at collisions of branes, and some ideas have there being only one infinte realm of spacetime, and our visible universe expanding is expanding into existing space, and there's a small chance that a quantum fluctuation could produce a whole new "visible universe" inside our own.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

What lies beyond our universe, in this dimension?

Likely the question again is meaningless, there probably isn't a beyond our universe, either it's finite and bounded or infinite and unbounded, so in either case there is no beyond.

In the case that there's only one realm of spacetime, there would be a "beyond our universe", but because of inflation we're causally isolated from it by the speed of light so we'd never end up knowing.

[photon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Therefore it stands to reason that whatever we're pushing into cannot be a vacuum as there is already a place holder (our universe) in that vacuum or empty space or whatever, so it stands to reason that like life on this planet, our universe is not along in the nothingness.

We're not "pushing" into anything, that's why I brought up the question of "what's north of the north pole"? Asking what we're pushing into may be just as meaningless a question.

[Kolbe31]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

What lies beyond our expanding universe?

Cowperson

I'd love to know how far "nothing" really goes. How big is nothing? And, come to think of it, what lies beyond "nothing?"

Cowperson

Are you answering your own questions or simply signing your name at the end of your posts? If it's the former, you should probably contact NASA.

[photon]

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

Here's a good link on the basics of cosmology.

Wiki also has decent info I find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by photon

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

Here's a good link on the basics of cosmology.

Wiki also has decent info I find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

From Wiki . . . . .

The Universe is defined as everything that physicallyexists: the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter, energy and momentum, and the physical laws and constants that govern them.

However, the term universe may be used in slightly different contextual senses, denoting such concepts as the cosmos, the world or Nature.

Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the universe is 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years,[1] and that the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years, or 8.80 × 1026metres.[2]

To me, the first and second paragraphs contradict the third . . . . . or, at the very least, go beyond the definition of the third.

In the first and second paragraphs, the "universe" is a concept, which could include the argument I've made, that there could be something beyond a boundary.

The third paragraph seems to make Photon's argument. That there are defined limits, both observed and not observed, to the universe, the universe originating from the single Big Bang we know about. A starting point and a point where it ends, although still expanding.

The first two paragraphs do leave open the theoretical question of something beyond the results of the Big Bang we know and love.

I think.

Cowperson

[troutman]

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...se#post1142913

Well, the universe is shaped exactly like the earth
if you go straight long enough you'll end up where you were.
And the universe is shaped exactly like the earth
if you go straight long enough you'll end up where you were.
The universe is shaped exactly like the earth.

- Modest Mouse, 3rd Planet

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=32510

The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be. - Carl Sagan

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The first two paragraphs do leave open the theoretical question of something beyond the results of the Big Bang we know and love.

I think.

Cowperson

I think so, but perhaps it is impossible or meaningless to know of anything outside our own universe.

Is the world outside my aquarium of any relevance to my fish?