Pope is Sorry

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

so other "christians" don't think she was a virgin?

Protestants don't.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Protestants don't.

really, can you provide a reference?

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

So they wear different coloured jersey's to church?.....I was actaully looking for more of a theological based response......buts thanks none the less

One of the big theological differences is the concept of "sola fida". Protestants believe that it is "by faith alone" that one goes to heaven, whereas Catholicism requires faith and works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

really, can you provide a reference?

Actually ... I can't.

I was basing it off songs sung by protestants in Ireland.

"eff the pope and virgin Mary we're the boys from Londonderry"

Guess the question is then why do they hate Mary?

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Actually ... I can't.

I was basing it off songs sung by protestants in Ireland.

"eff the pope and virgin Mary we're the boys from Londonderry"

Guess the question is then why do they hate Mary?

I think that has less to do with what they believe and more to do with what would make the audience mad........

[Jedi Ninja]

Mary does not have any special role within the Protestant church, and Protestants often crticize Catholicism for its veneration of Mary, who is almost as important as Jesus to some Catholics. It is somewhat ironic that Mary plays such a huge role in Catholicism given its stance against the ordination of women.

Protestants typically hold that Mary was the mother of Jesus, but was an ordinary woman devoted to God. Therefore, there are virtually no Marian veneration, Marian feasts, Marian pilgrimages, Marian art, Marian music or Marian spirituality in today's Protestant communities. Within these views, Roman Catholic beliefs and practices, which endured more than 1500 years after Jesus' death, are at times rejected as heresy, e.g. theologian Karl Barth wrote that "the heresy of the Catholic Church is its mariology."[34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Virgin_Mary

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

I think that has less to do with what they believe and more to do with what would make the audience mad........

So they sacrifice their own religious beliefs for the greater good of antagonism?

[BlackEleven]

Protestants do believe that Mary was a virgin when she birthed Jesus, but do not direct any worship toward her. It's similar to saints. They're often assigned special places within the Catholic church, but not within Protestant denominations.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So they sacrifice their own religious beliefs for the greater good of antagonism?

uhm...yeah.....it does not surprise me at all. I saw villages burned, all aminals killed and wells poisoned by Croat forces, after they had taken the villages.......so yeah sides in a fight will do stupid things....

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thor

Last I heard they make up 16%, 135 million people, while Christians make up around 40%, the rest mostly Islam.

The problem is that the Vatican has a serious influence on Africans, many of the religious in Africa, be it Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, et al.. The mixture of old religion and tribal religion leads to all kinds of interesting outcomes, but what it has done is cause massive distrust to the west, especially after Africa's colonial age.

That distrust is everything from western medicine and things such as condom use. The fact the Vatican tells its many bishops over Africa to tell their followers not to use condoms only spreads to the regular people as "condoms are dangerous, product of white man that spreads aids." You get a highly religious populace, with horrible education standards and all kinds of nonsense becomes believed, such as raping a virgin will cure aids.

The problem of distrust is so bad, that while the Vatican speaks to 'Catholics' in Africa, its message unfortunately is spread to others and helps continue this mistrust of the west technology, medicine, etc.

There is no doubt condoms would save millions in Africa, and the Vatican has a big hand in continuing this fear of protection, whether it be directly to their 135 million followers or to those who hear this message 2nd hand.

Its gotten so bad that in some countries in Africa they are pushing circumcision on boys in order to lower AIDS risks since young African males are very unlikely to use protection.

So yes, African's do listen to their religious leaders and the Pope is in charge of a lot of them.

I disagree. Sixteen percent is not that much, and besides, the Pope preaches abstinence - the only fool proof way to avoid the transmission of AIDS. Obviously people pick and choose what they want to follow regardless of what the pope says. The Pope could tell everyone to wear condoms tomorrow, and most people who don't now won't after that decree.

Not to mention that traditional African beliefs, which are intermingled with religion, also go against condom use and monogamy. Many Africans believe that AIDS is a demon and they can be cured if they have sex with a virgin. In some places is customary to offer your wife to a friend for sex. It's these beliefs that are the problem.

[Locke]

Guys, he said hes sorry, why the pile-on? Hes sorry....

[Thor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I disagree. Sixteen percent is not that much

135,000,000,000 is 'not that much?' If 1 Catholic tells a non Catholic that condoms are wrong, you can see how bad information spreads quickly.

, and besides, the Pope preaches abstinence - the only fool proof way to avoid the transmission of AIDS.

Or they could do what a lot of African nations are trying to do, promote sex education and make condoms readily available to stem the tide of AIDS. Obviously abstinence is a horrible failure, condoms would definately decrease the spread and increasing numbers of HIV/AIDS in Africa.

Obviously people pick and choose what they want to follow regardless of what the pope says. The Pope could tell everyone to wear condoms tomorrow, and most people who don't now won't after that decree.

The point is his Church, his words, his predecessor's words and the words of the Bishops all over Africa have had a DIRECT effect on condom use in Africa including muddying the truth about their effectiveness and use.

Not to mention that traditional African beliefs, which are intermingled with religion, also go against condom use and monogamy. Many Africans believe that AIDS is a demon and they can be cured if they have sex with a virgin. In some places is customary to offer your wife to a friend for sex. It's these beliefs that are the problem.

So you think the Catholic church's policy for the last 5-6 decades, in Africa speaking against has had little or no effect on the common fear of condoms and of course affecting the 135 million Catholics who refuse to wear them and obviously refuse to be abstinent?

I'm just curious, do you think the Church is innocent, has very little or no blood on their hands?

Just curious if your just apologetic or you genuinely believe the no condom stance has had no harmful affect on the continent of Africa and the HIV/AIDS human disaster.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thor

135,000,000,000 is 'not that much?' If 1 Catholic tells a non Catholic that condoms are wrong, you can see how bad information spreads quickly.

Do you really think that non-Catholics look to Catholics for advice and take it to heart. This might sound cold, but if someone doesn't have the ability to make sound judgements on their own that will foster self-preservation, then that's evolution at work.

Or they could do what a lot of African nations are trying to do, promote sex education and make condoms readily available to stem the tide of AIDS. Obviously abstinence is a horrible failure, condoms would definately decrease the spread and increasing numbers of HIV/AIDS in Africa.

The point is his Church, his words, his predecessor's words and the words of the Bishops all over Africa have had a DIRECT effect on condom use in Africa including muddying the truth about their effectiveness and use.

They could, but as an organization, that is not their purpose. They have as much of a burden to bear on that front as the NRA, WWF or the IRS. Groups exist for specific purposes.

Not to mention, Catholics are not the only religious groups that premote the idea of sex for procreation only. Many protestant and non-Christian groups do as well.

So you think the Catholic church's policy for the last 5-6 decades, in Africa speaking against has had little or no effect on the common fear of condoms and of course affecting the 135 million Catholics who refuse to wear them and obviously refuse to be abstinent?

I'm just curious, do you think the Church is innocent, has very little or no blood on their hands?

Just curious if your just apologetic or you genuinely believe the no condom stance has had no harmful affect on the continent of Africa and the HIV/AIDS human disaster.

I'm not saying that the Catholic Church doesn't have anything to atone for, I'm just disagreeing that they have a huge burden to bear in Africa. Like I said, African traditional beliefs are just as harmful and more widespread. If no Cathoilics existed in Africa, the situation would be just as bad... or even worse as data shows that most Catholic countries actually tend to have relatively low HIV rates compared to African countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...ing-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/re...-as-percentage

http://www.nationmaster.com/plot/rel...aid_percap/all

Notice how most Catholic countries have very low rates and the only ones that are high are African countries. That suggests the problem isn't Catholicism at all. Why would Zimbabwe have a way higher HIV infection rate than Sri Lanka or Ukraine when both countries have a similar sized Catholic population? Saying that Catholicism is to blame for HIV rates in Zimbabwe is like saying that they are responsible to low infection rates in Italy or France. Look at how low Ireland, Mexico and Spain are in HIV rates, and they have more Catholics per capita than any African countries. Obviously there is a lot more going on.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Thor

Just curious if your just apologetic or you genuinely believe the no condom stance has had no harmful affect on the continent of Africa and the HIV/AIDS human disaster.

Sure it's had an effect but to be honest IMO it's far from being the biggest issue. As FA said a lot of the greater issues are cultural. e.g.

Harare, Zimbabwe and Nigeri Village, Kenya -- Sipewe Mhakeni used herbs from the Mugugudhu tree. After grinding the stem and leaf, she would mix just a pinch of the sand-colored powder with water, wrap it in a bit of nylon stocking, and insert it into her vagina for 10 to 15 minutes. The herbs swell the soft tissues of the vagina, make it hot, and dry it out. That made sex "very painful," says Mhakeni. But, she adds, "Our African husbands enjoy sex with a dry vagina." Many women concur that dry sex, as this practice is called, hurts. Yet it is common throughout southern Africa, where the AIDS epidemic is worse than anywhere in the world. Researchers conducting a study in Zimbabwe, where Mhakeni lives, had trouble finding a control group of women who did not engage in some form of the practice. Some women dry out their vaginas with mutendo wegudo -- soil with baboon urine -- that they obtain from traditional healers, while others use detergents, salt, cotton, or shredded newspaper. Research shows that dry sex causes vaginal lacerations and suppresses the vagina's natural bacteria, both of which increase the likelihood of HIV infection. And some AIDS workers believe the extra friction makes condoms tear more easily.

http://www.thebody.com/content/art2762.html

I've personally chatted with African doctors (Botswana) who say this practice in their opinion is the biggest problem. No mucous membrane = easier transmission of disease.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Sure it's had an effect but to be honest IMO it's far from being the biggest issue. As FA said a lot of the greater issues are cultural. e.g.

Just to add to that:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200904160589.html

Despite consistent efforts to curtail the most severe AIDS epidemic in the world, it appears to have gained ground. "Swazis are very traditional people, and their sexual behaviour is inbred and totally against safe sexual practices, like condom use and monogamous relationships, that limit the spread of HIV," Thandi Mngomezulu, an HIV testing counsellor in Manzini, the country's main commercial city, told IRIN.

"All humans have sexual urges, but behaviour is determined by social norms. Swazis still believe that a woman's role is to bear children continuously, and that a man's role is to impregnate multiple partners, which is why polygamy is so strong here, both as an institution and in the minds of young men, who may not ever get married but still have many children from multiple girlfriends," Dlamini said.

Researchers noted that Swazi men strongly defended the practice of "kungena", or wife inheritance, whereby a widow becomes the wife of the deceased man's brother, a practice found to spread HIV.
Swazi men defended polygamy as a cultural necessity, but also lamented lapsed cultural practices they said could stop the spread of HIV/AIDS, like "kuhlawula", in terms of which men or boys who impregnated unmarried women were fined five cows by their community elders, but these laws were no longer enforced.

The study found that, like many traditional societies, Swazis lived in isolation and were generally suspicious of other cultures - practices like monogamy, family planning and birth control were considered foreign and suspect.

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm

Nearly 60 children are raped every day in South Africa and while experts agree to disagree as to the causes, or whether the pervasive belief in the so-called "Virgin Cure" prevents/cures HIV/Aids is possibly responsible for this deeply disturbing phenomenon, university researcher, Mike Earl-Taylor suggests it could well be a contributing factor, and a major one at that. Moreover, infant rape appears to be unique to South Africa, however, the Virgin Cure is not.

Between 1500 to 1700 new HIV/Aids infections occur daily in South Africa, or nearly one seventh of the 14000 new infections worldwide. This figure amounts to an estimated 5 million new infections globally in 2001; more than 95 percent of these new infections occurred in developing countries and HIV/Aids-associated illnesses caused the deaths of 3 million people worldwide, including an estimated 580,000 children younger than 15 years[4].
21,000 child rapes, and some 37,000 adult rapes, were reported in South Africa last year. According to the South African Police Service, only one in 35 are actually reported. The actual incidence of rape could well be in excess of a million per year. It can only be speculated and extrapolated then that the actual incidence of child/infant rape has reached alarming and phenomenal proportions that should signal urgent intervention from the highest levels of government, and society-at-large.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by Thor

135,000,000,000 is 'not that much?' If 1 Catholic tells a non Catholic that condoms are wrong, you can see how bad information spreads quickly.



Or they could do what a lot of African nations are trying to do, promote sex education and make condoms readily available to stem the tide of AIDS. Obviously abstinence is a horrible failure, condoms would definately decrease the spread and increasing numbers of HIV/AIDS in Africa.




The point is his Church, his words, his predecessor's words and the words of the Bishops all over Africa have had a DIRECT effect on condom use in Africa including muddying the truth about their effectiveness and use.



So you think the Catholic church's policy for the last 5-6 decades, in Africa speaking against has had little or no effect on the common fear of condoms and of course affecting the 135 million Catholics who refuse to wear them and obviously refuse to be abstinent?

I'm just curious, do you think the Church is innocent, has very little or no blood on their hands?

Just curious if your just apologetic or you genuinely believe the no condom stance has had no harmful affect on the continent of Africa and the HIV/AIDS human disaster.

You would have to look at the statistics on HIV rates in Catholic areas of Africa versus non-Catholic areas. I have a feeling lower condom use will be offset by the fact that the church also preaches monogomy, chastity, etc..

I think a much bigger deal was that the Bush administration suspended funding of condom distribution in Africa. Obviously, his Protestant and Evangelical constituency must be against the condom distribution as well.

[peter12]

As well, even with extensive condom education, it is very difficult to get condom use up to high enough levels to actually be effective. As tough as it may be to wrap one's sensibilities around, the ABC approach is probably the most effective. Uganda has used it extensively and it has been akin to an 80% vaccine. That said, I don't think the Catholic Church has any business getting into the business of the science of human sexuality. Condoms when used properly do work to stop transmission of HIV/AIDS.

It's also funny how some here seem to think that teaching abstinence and monogamy is a bad thing. The abstinence education in Africa normally is directed at young people to delay their first sexual experience and to avoid irresponsible promiscuity, which leads to higher HIV prevalence. As far as I can tell, I'm not sure if monogamy is all that bad a thing either.

Lots of things to bash the Catholic Church about. This condom thing is actually pretty low down on the list.