R-word - I felt like such a ###### - Ad Discussion

[Bertuzzied]

What is FG on that poster?
Flames Gimp?

[fatso]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Here's the thing though. If we're saying using the word "######" in talking with friends (ie. "you're a ######!") is offensive to people with disabilities, is that not admitting that the actual word "######" is used to label people with disabilities? Shouldn't they be trying to distance themselves from the word altogether, rather than giving in and be insulted by people who use it? I dunno, that's just my two cents.

I get what you're trying to say, but then why are you choosing THAT word to rip on your friend? Where does the meaning of that particular joke come from? And does it have the same meaning divorced from that historical context? Language isn't a game of formal logic in my opinion. It's very much vested, created and controlled by history and social circumstance. And it's always changing and evolving. That seems obvious to me.

And Gozer, I don't know if it would get rid of the sentiment. I'm not prescient. But that's a pretty unreasonable test to meet no? Surely it would be a step in the right direction both to getting rid of that sentiment and in allowing the mentally challenged some say over how they're represented in the public sphere.

[Yeah_Baby]

In the spirit of political correctness when we get short changed we no longer get gypped. As I'm sure it's offensive to a Gypsy.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by fatso

It seems to me though you're proving my point.

The word '######' has many uses no doubt. My car example strikes me as an 'acceptable' use of the word... slow, impeded, etc.

But is it not also the case that '######' is used to insult people? You've clearly picked up that was my intention in making that statement. And why is it an insult? Because it means simply "slow, impeded, etc."? Or because it means something more? I'd say it can mean something more...
it can only be an insult because ######s are or have been thought to be inferior and less than deserving of the dignity and rights of average citizens. That's precisely how analagous insults work, no? That's what those kinds of insults play off of. And in repeating such innocuous statements the problem people like myself have with them is that they implicitly rely on quiet concepts of discrimination and reinforce that discrimination in a seemingly harmeless manner.

It's an insult to the not mentally challenged because they aren't mentally challenged and a person is saying that they are.

If you call me white, well, I am white. If you call me a bitch, well I am a bitch. If you call me a ######, well I'm not, so you're saying I'm stupid. That's why it's an insult.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by fatso

And Gozer, I don't know if it would get rid of the sentiment. I'm not prescient. But that's a pretty unreasonable test to meet no? Surely it would be a step in the right direction both to getting rid of that sentiment and in allowing the mentally challenged some say over how they're represented in the public sphere.

My point is not that this "R-word" stuff won't fully remove this sentiment, my point is that this effort will be counter-productive. Jackasses like me aren't going to reform because of these ads, I'm just going to redefine the term.

I rarely use the word, but when I do it would be when something was more complicated than it needed to be. A conflicting policy at work or if I put my pasta in water before its boiling. Something that should have been easy becomes difficult.

That seems intuitive (albeit insensitive) to me, the mentally handicapped have to put more effort into some tasks I consider simple. We should be pushing that meaning, extolling the effort some people need to accomplish their goals or help the infirm, not redefining the word imply dehumanization.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by fotze

fatso (weird name since thats the '######' of the obese world)

Well done.

As for gay, I don't like the fact that one group can just hijack a word and then make it off limits to everyone else. That's gay.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Will that sentiment cease to exist if we all promise to not use a certain word?

absolutely it will, its not like people would just start using another word to insult people. "dude, you're so mentally handicapped". Then we can start all over again arguing about another world we cant use any more.

Just think how racial slurs have gone over the years. at times it was acceptable now there is a whole list of things you cant call black people. can i say black? i dont know anymore. African-Canadian then.

[REDVAN]

I felt like such a redvan.

[4X4]

Beat it, spook. This don't concern you!

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by 4x4

beat it, spook. This don't concern you!

ha-ha!

[fatso]

Let me try to bang this out in a few ways:

To be fair, no one is saying the word '######' shouldn't exist or that it's off-limits. The ad is trying to stop it being used as an insult (4X4).

When it's used as to describe someone who is not challenged in my experience it's used to denigrate them, even if in jest. Therefore it's a word that is meant to denigrate an able individual by comparing them a disabled individual (Firefly). The bitch, white thing doesn't work because those are actual descriptors of you.

Fotze you and I usually do agree but I'm not sure I follow your point. Either ######s have been disadvantaged historically - including the use of insulting names of which '######' has been one - or they haven't.

Not surprisingly this has become a thread about political correctness... and it looks like we're either going to play logic games to explain why ###### isn't insulting or rely on context and communication theory to argue that it is. So, let's try a different tactic and put the thread back on track.

The Special Olympics, a reputable group that puts the needs of challenged individuals first and foremost, has created a campaign asking people to reconsider their use of the word '######'. As Joe Citizen, I see the ad. My personal take on it, is "OK... I'm not challenged, if they want me to stop using the word '######' I guess I'll try it out... no skin off my back". It seems to me the response of other people is "No... '######' isn't offensive, and I have a right to continue to use it". My questions is, simply, why it's important for people who want to use the word '######' to fight this battle? Why is it important to you to preserve the right to use that word in the context put forward by the ad? Why not just try and help them out?

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Swarly

absolutely it will, its not like people would just start using another word to insult people. "dude, you're so mentally handicapped". Then we can start all over again arguing about another world we cant use any more.

Just think how racial slurs have gone over the years. at times it was acceptable now there is a whole list of things you cant call black people. can i say black? i dont know anymore. African-Canadian then.

Even that can easily be labelled offensive. It implies Africans are all the same. It also implies they are Canadian citizens, which they may not be, they might be landed immigrants.

People need to stop empowering words.

[4X4]

It won't be long before losers start getting pissed off when I call my friends losers.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Even that can easily be labelled offensive. It implies Africans are all the same. It also implies they are Canadian citizens, which they may not be, they might be landed immigrants.

People need to stop empowering words.

It also implies that ALL black skinned folk are indeed from Africa. What about Jamaicans etc.?

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by fatso

My questions is, simply, why it's important for people who want to use the word '######' to fight this battle? Why is it important to you to preserve the right to use that word in the context put forward by the ad? Why not just try and help them out?

Probably because people don't like being told what to do. They'll do it out of their own morals, not because some ad told them to.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It also implies that ALL black skinned folk are indeed from Africa. What about Jamaicans etc.?

Exactly. It just becomes a "politically correct" mess.

No one gets offended for being called white or caucasian, despite many of us being tan or olive skinned, or despite the fact that the caucasus region (where the term was originally derived) refers to Georgians/Southern Russian peoples and not western europeans.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Exactly. It just becomes a "politically correct" mess.

No one gets offended for being called white or caucasian, despite many of us being tan or olive skinned, or despite the fact that the caucasus region (where the term was originally derived) refers to Georgians/Southern Russian peoples and not western europeans.

I knew this chick who would say shes not white, shes european. I told her to stop being a ######.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Probably because people don't like being told what to do. They'll do it out of their own morals, not because some ad told them to.

Sure, but some people may not realize that it's offending people. Better to find out from an ad than have someone that is offended by it tell it to your face.

[Philly06Cup]

I put '######' in the same class of offensiveness as 'girl' and 'blind.'

"You throw like a girl."
"What are you, blind?!"

I don't find either of those expressions offensive. In the same vein, when my friend is slow-witted about something, I may call him a ######. Sometimes I may even call him mentally challenged.

The negative connotation doesn't come from the word '######' -- It comes from the fact that mentally challenged people are inferior to non-mentally challenged people. The same way that, generally speaking, girls are inferior to boys in terms of throwing and blind people are inferior to Seeing people.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I put '######' in the same class of offensiveness as 'girl' and 'blind.'

"You throw like a girl."
"What are you, blind?!"

I don't find either of those expressions offensive. In the same vein, when my friend is slow-witted about something, I may call him a ######. Sometimes I may even call him mentally challenged.

The negative connotation doesn't come from the word '######' -- It comes from the fact that mentally challenged people are inferior to non-mentally challenged people. The same way that, generally speaking, girls are inferior to boys in terms of throwing and blind people are inferior to Seeing people.

What are you, deaf? You're not hearing what fatso is saying!!