Religious child abuse, a real case for it....?

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Thor

How is intolerance not being taught when the child believes they are sinners, they are flawed human beings? They are told hellfire IS real, that society is inherently sinful and evil?

...

However she does believe in Creationism and adam/eve correct? Unless you've found anything different.

The fact is she still believes that people need to be 'saved' and have no way to salvation but through Jesus.

That is pretty much all religion I've been exposed to right there. I grew up in a christian home believing all those exact same things as all religious people do. And there are religious people out there that still believe them, that's their choice. I don't see this as child abuse. Nutty religious people sure, but in time she will grow up and make her own choices as everyone does.

As for the outside world, maybe its not such a bad thing to not know of britney spears and all. I know people who let their 10 year old kids watch family guy. Which is worse?

This isnt child abuse unless all religions are abusing their children. Maybe they are, but I dont see this case as that much worse than the rest.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Lol I suppose, but I mean, what's the harm really...the world is full of all sorts of people, I am on your side in terms of belief, but if she is smart enough, she will challenge what she believes at some point in her life..if not well that just the way goes...one lesson I have learnt in life, it is hard to change people, whether what they do is good or bad..or if our beliefs are different...in this case, the family seems to be very loving, something that is really lacking in this world...but the fact that a film crew was allowed into their lives, the brother off at college, she being allowed to visit him...i suspect some bias on the part of the film crew..

No doubt, and the fact Dion linked to a blog where its apparent she will receive outside comments/questions/debate means she will face the cold hard reality of the outside world.

In the documentary that was not what I would have expected, hopefully that means all his many children will be able to engage in real debate and be challenged like the rest of us growing up in a free society.

Ultimately, that blog of hers will be now a part of my future interest for the next number of years because it will either show the film crew bias or it will show us that even with isolation a young person has hope to outgrow their circumstances.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Swarly

That is pretty much all religion I've been exposed to right there. I grew up in a christian home believing all those exact same things as all religious people do. And there are religious people out there that still believe them, that's their choice. I don't see this as child abuse. Nutty religious people sure, but in time she will grow up and make her own choices as everyone does.

Do you think Muslims who dress their children in Hamas clothes with machine guns and tell them to kill all jews, is that child abuse or just religious belief?

I just want to know as hasn't been clearly pointed out here, which is abuse and which is acceptable. Because if this girl was a muslim talking about how jews are to be destroyed and all the typical islamic propaganda I don't think many CP'ers would be here arguing for her loving and family orientated upbringing.

As for the outside world, maybe its not such a bad thing to not know of britney spears and all. I know people who let their 10 year old kids watch family guy. Which is worse?

I know the documentary makes this point, I don't care that a child is interested in Spears or any other famous person. The fact is in all society teens are made into 'fans' of whatever celebrity of their own home country or other. Theres a difference between being a fan of a celebrity culture and not having a choice to be aware of it. At least some children know of it and know its ridiculous.

This isnt child abuse unless all religions are abusing their children. Maybe they are, but I dont see this case as that much worse than the rest.

Its a sliding scale. The vast majority of religious parents in the western world are no abusing their children, far from it. Those children are able to be exposed and see the outside world.

But lets not kid ourselves, those same religious parents will point at cults and suggest its abuse and a perversion of life. So obviously we have a sliding scale, depends where you stand before you can determine where you stand on that scale.

It would be different IF those children had no choice, were forced to see one viewpoint and be shut off from society because of parental beliefs, whatever those be.

There is hope for Deborah.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Thor

Do you think Muslims who dress their children in Hamas clothes with machine guns and tell them to kill all jews, is that child abuse or just religious belief?

Telling your children to kill would be abuse. Telling your children to obey the 10 commandments, one of which is do not kill, is not. Two very opposite things there.

Again I think these people are nutters, but I think that of a lot of religious, and non-religious people too. These people took it to a higher level but I dont believe this comes close to child abuse.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Thor

As parents we should be giving them a chance to learn and decide for themselves, not forcing them into a pigeon hole at a young age.

As a parent are you going to teach your children about religion to give them the choice?

Just a thought.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Swarly

Telling your children to kill would be abuse. Telling your children to obey the 10 commandments, one of which is do not kill, is not. Two very opposite things there.

Abuse to your perception, not to a Muslim mother convinced her child is being raised in the great jihad against other religions. You cannot in her mind argue her belief is immoral because she is only following her Koran.

Which of the 10 Commandments would you suggest children follow?

1.I am the Lord your God - Thanks, good to know.
2. You shall have no other gods before me - Really why? What are you the boss of me??
3. You shall not make for yourself an idol - What Idol? Billy Idol is amazing, but what do you mean, I love Britney Spears does that make me an idol worshiper?
4. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God - So the all powerful God cannot handle misuse and swear words of his name?
5. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy - Haha, yeah... If that was a real important commandment most of the world today would end up in hell.
6. Honor your father and mother - Wow that's deep, what if your father left your mother and your mother abused you.. Honour them? Thanks for the tip.
7. You shall not murder - Great tip, unless of course you murder a Jew or Muslim, then hey all kinds of good for doing that.
8. You shall not commit adultery - Good call, especially if your a woman, you are the property of a man and should be obedient to him, if not town square and stoning incoming.
9. You shall not steal - Deep, mostly a useful ideology, what if a desperate African child suffering from starvation steels a loaf of bread? Good point, that child should suffer in eternity in hell. Thanks again God for the tip.
10. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor - The Osbournes should have lied, their neighbors were jerks. Again solid word of god, this seems really important in the scheme of things.
11. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife - Depends who's your neighbor, and if my neighbors wife happens to be Jessica Alba I'm not allowed to covet her?? God is thought police, aka 1984
12. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor - Oh man that new Chevy is really sweet, why can't I desire that, you hate capitalism God?? Damn you, jealousy of neighbors is what makes Capitalism strong.

Oh wait that's 12 Commandments! Well not only is 10 a debated figure, the fact anyone claims those to be the undeniable word of a all powerful and wise supreme being should be the biggest reason not to believe in the man made holy books of Islam, Judeo-christian belief.

Again I think these people are nutters, but I think that of a lot of religious, and non-religious people too. These people took it to a higher level but I dont believe this comes close to child abuse.

Nope, and these people isolating their kids from society is not harmful, long as they aren't told to take up arms and kill jews or muslims then its all good.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Dan02

As a parent are you going to teach your children about religion to give them the choice?

Just a thought.

I'll teach them about all religions, western/eastern and teach them about non belief. More importantly I'll teach them skepticism about all things, and that they should decide for themselves what to believe and never think anything is the absolute truth.

That's how I was brought up, I went to Church, I was religious. I was told not everyone was religious, not everyone was Christian. Once I heard not everyone was Christian, the first thing I thought was wow, what do other people believe.

Eventually curiosity killed the cat, because children are incredibly smart and able to question everything. Its just IF parents decide to give them absolutisms or if they give them an open mind and critical/skeptical thinking.

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Thor

Abuse to your perception, not to a Muslim mother convinced her child is being raised in the great jihad against other religions. You cannot in her mind argue her belief is immoral because she is only following her Koran.

Which of the 10 Commandments would you suggest children follow?

1.I am the Lord your God - Thanks, good to know.
2. You shall have no other gods before me - Really why? What are you the boss of me??
3. You shall not make for yourself an idol - What Idol? Billy Idol is amazing, but what do you mean, I love Britney Spears does that make me an idol worshiper?
4. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God - So the all powerful God cannot handle misuse and swear words of his name?
5. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy - Haha, yeah... If that was a real important commandment most of the world today would end up in hell.
6. Honor your father and mother - Wow that's deep, what if your father left your mother and your mother abused you.. Honour them? Thanks for the tip.
7. You shall not murder - Great tip, unless of course you murder a Jew or Muslim, then hey all kinds of good for doing that.
8. You shall not commit adultery - Good call, especially if your a woman, you are the property of a man and should be obedient to him, if not town square and stoning incoming.
9. You shall not steal - Deep, mostly a useful ideology, what if a desperate African child suffering from starvation steels a loaf of bread? Good point, that child should suffer in eternity in hell. Thanks again God for the tip.
10. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor - The Osbournes should have lied, their neighbors were jerks. Again solid word of god, this seems really important in the scheme of things.
11. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife - Depends who's your neighbor, and if my neighbors wife happens to be Jessica Alba I'm not allowed to covet her?? God is thought police, aka 1984
12. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor - Oh man that new Chevy is really sweet, why can't I desire that, you hate capitalism God?? Damn you, jealousy of neighbors is what makes Capitalism strong.

Oh wait that's 12 Commandments! Well not only is 10 a debated figure, the fact anyone claims those to be the undeniable word of a all powerful and wise supreme being should be the biggest reason not to believe in the man made holy books of Islam, Judeo-christian belief.

Nope, and these people isolating their kids from society is not harmful, long as they aren't told to take up arms and kill jews or muslims then its all good.

So you are just against all religion in general, that is a different argument. However, unless raising any child as religious is abuse there is nothing different about this case.

These kids have access to the internet, so clearly they could learn about celebrities and the rest of the world if they wanted but they have no desire to do so right now, that will change. It seems the parents are teaching them well in school so there is no brainwashing by lack of information. The oldest brother won a scholarship to go to college. Sounds like they taught him better than most parents.

Believe it or not people are allowed to do and think what they want as long as it doesnt hurt other people. That is the big difference between this case and your example of Muslims sending their kids to kill Jews. That is the difference between having a crazy idea about a magical space being who wants you to love other people and live a modest life, and abuse.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Swarly

So you are just against all religion in general, that is a different argument. However, unless raising any child as religious is abuse there is nothing different about this case.

I'm not against children being brought up religious, as I have repeated through every post I've made so far.

I'm against when you take religion as the reason you seclude and remove your child from society in order to 'teach them properly.'

If a cult removes a person from society and teaches the children of that cult to respect a narrow and absolute world view everyone gets upset, but if a family like this one raises 12 children out of the school system and expects this to be good for them I for one don't think its a good idea.

These kids have access to the internet, so clearly they could learn about celebrities and the rest of the world if they wanted but they have no desire to do so right now, that will change. It seems the parents are teaching them well in school so there is no brainwashing by lack of information. The oldest brother won a scholarship to go to college. Sounds like they taught him better than most parents.

True, we don't know fully what exactly this family has tought them and has refrained from teaching them. For all we know his kids believe in Evolution, think the world is billions of years old, etc.. But its likely they have taught them as is seen in the video that the world is full of evil doers like Bush said, and that they are born sinners.

If their access to the internet is not controlled like I suspect it is, they are in trouble, if they have the access we hope they do, then they will at least be given all the exposure they need to decide for themselves.

But the problem I have is why the parents exclude them from public or private school, I mean its the UK not the US school system

Believe it or not people are allowed to do and think what they want as long as it doesnt hurt other people. That is the big difference between this case and your example of Muslims sending their kids to kill Jews.

If this girl and her family believe the only salvation is jesus, that means the rest of the humanity that doesn't agree is flawed. This mindset is from her young age going to define her for the rest of her life without her being given a chance to decide this for herself. She has been given no choice but to believe ONLY what her parents tell her, and in this case its absolutism. Which is sad, cause she's obviously a smart girl.

That is the difference between having a crazy idea about a magical space being who wants you to love other people and live a modest life, and abuse.

While the magical space being wants those things, theres a massive problem with what your not addressing. That magical being also justifies all kinds of evil, and even if you disagree people have throughout history 'interpreted' the holy books to suit their agendas.

If this girl was told from birth that black people are inferior and that slavery is justified in the bible (which it is) are you going to support her parents for just raising her as they saw fit? Long as she's smart, has good grades, etc.. Right??

[Swarly]

Originally Posted by Thor

If a cult removes a person from society and teaches the children of that cult to respect a narrow and absolute world view everyone gets upset, but if a family like this one raises 12 children out of the school system and expects this to be good for them I for one don't think its a good idea.

But the problem I have is why the parents exclude them from public or private school, I mean its the UK not the US school system

lots of people have many different reasons for homeschooling their kids. not abuse

If this girl and her family believe the only salvation is jesus, that means the rest of the humanity that doesn't agree is flawed.

this is exactly what religion teaches. while we may disagree with it its not abuse

This mindset is from her young age going to define her for the rest of her life without her being given a chance to decide this for herself. She has been given no choice but to believe ONLY what her parents tell her, and in this case its absolutism. Which is sad, cause she's obviously a smart girl.

Many people are raised in a very strict religious home with exactly those same values and they come to question things as they get older. Not many people continue with blind faith of everything they were taught as children as you suggest here.


I do see your point, If it was a cult teaching these things we would look down on it yes. Since they are being taught a main stream religion it is accepted. But that is another argument that has been fought on CP before.

I'm just not seeing this as any worse than most families raising their kids in a religious home. Most of these families impose restrictions on what their kids can watch on tv, what they can read, etc. I can attest to this personally. This family has taken it a little farther but I'm just not seeing it as crossing the line to abuse. Its not like they are locking the kids up and not allowing them out. And they are teaching them about the outside world. Maybe not pop culture, but I'm assuming if you get a scholarship to college you know your history and world affairs.

[HPLovecraft]

The girl seems happy. Why is this abuse? Because you don't agree with her beliefs?

People can believe in whatever they want, and be raised however they want, as long as they are not physically or emotionally being abused. We, as people of a nation, shouldn't be here to tell them what to believe in or not, or how to raise their kids (as long as, again, it's not abuse).

This is not abuse, no matter how much you enjoy hating religion.

[photon]

I don't think happiness is necessarily a good indicator of abuse.

I think it's hard to say "this is abuse" and "this is not abuse" like it's a on or off switch.

In reality it's more like a scale of 1 to 100.

Teaching your kid the sky is blue because its light reflecting off the ocean is wrong, but is a 1 on the scale, it's not abuse.

Teaching your kid that other races are inferior is 100, that's abuse, and one of the worst kinds of abuse in my mind.

When you evaluate religion, it's hard to evaluate it as one thing, because there are so many aspects to it, and they're going to vary wildly depending on the denomination, sect, and even the individual church and individual.

The thing is most kids go through things in their life, mistakes the parents made, that you can look back on and consider negative.

Parent A has anger problems in dealing with and yelling at their kids sometimes because his parents did the same thing.. is that abuse? Parents B and C never teach their kid how to manage money so the kid has money problems their whole life, is that abuse? Parents D and E never spend enough time with their kid so their kid becomes so driven to please their parents, they end up neglecting their own kid, is that abuse?

It's hard to draw the line.

I know myself there are a number of things that I had growing up in religion that are very negative, things I am making a conscious choice to ensure that my son does not have.

Was it abuse? I don't know, maybe. I certainly think there are some aspects of some religions that can have a negative impact on an individual growing up in them. When you indoctrinate someone at an early age part of me doesn't like that, no matter what is being indoctrinated.

I don't know what an alternative would be though, short of taking all kids away from parents and raising them in a perfectly neutral setting until they are old enough to decide for themselves.

[Cheese]

Teaching your children lies? Is that abuse or ignorance? Where is the line in the sand?
Isnt it time we re-evaluate how and what we are teaching our kids? As photon mentioned above...is it more important to have a religious upbringing or actually spend all of that time teaching your kids how to save and invest money?
Obviously teaching the ten commandments hasnt worked wonders in the western world.
Why is it that we accept teaching our kids some lies just to say one day..."well that was a big lie and we did it just so you could have some fun"? <eg Santa, Easter Bunny>.
Is it cool to have your Catholic children paint ash crosses on their foreheads...is that something that needs to be taught in schools?
What will future earth think of us two hundred years from now?

[Yeah_Baby]

When she said said that girls belong to their father until they belong to their husbands, that really hit it home for me. Personally I think this family is uber cooky. But that being said I don't know if I would use it an an indictment of all religion and people who self identify as religious.

[redforever]

I saw no problems whatsoever, and I watched all 6 segments. The children are being homeschooled with an emphasis on religion. Except for the fact that they are in a homeschool setting, how is this any different than so many schools right now that perhaps offer an emphasis on sports, an emphasis on music, an emphasis on science and the academics. You must have heard of hockey parents? They are as extreme as religious zealots. You been to a Kiwanis Music Festival and watch any of the parents as their child performs? You can have extreme parents in many facets of education, not just those who emphasize religion while schooling their children.

And I don't really compare this to a cult. There are some similarities of course. But their oldest son is no longer living with them, he seems to have fit in quite nicely outside of his home setting. And heavens forbid, he is living with a couple of girls!!! Wouldn't you think his parents would have gone off the deep end with that if they were totally smothering their children?

The cults I worry about are the ones that enforce child labor, the ones that sexually exploit children, the ones that are completely cut off from the outside world. I don't see this family fitting into any of those categories.

The family seems loving and supportive to me. The son and daughter seem extremely bright. I mean, how old was the girl? And the brother took her with him to some party and she did not seem to be in culture shock to me - and those present at the party were significantly older than she was too. I got the impression this is a pretty sharp young girl who is going to be able to handle herself in life in any situation.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Thor

Mel. These 12 kids are being brought up living without:

1. Being a part of society, removed from public/private schools.
2. Being told and repeatedly told they are sinners, evil, immoral and that they deserve to go to hell and that they need to prove their worthyness to their parents and life.
3. Given a home education that is teaching them outright LIES about science and history.

Basically isolating their children from reality, teaching them to believe only what the parents believe and not giving them a chance to learn for themselves.

If these parents were teaching these isolated children racism instead of christian belief they would be a source of shame and hatred from the public.

But because they teach these kids religion, its OK and not a big deal. But this is clear abuse, because simply these kids have no chance to learn and understand other beliefs and exposed to different cultures, races, beliefs, etc..

Its isolationism, indoctrination.

So what do you propose?

Laws that force you to raise your children in a certain way? Good luck with that.

[Displaced Flames fan]

I didn't read the entire thread, so this may have already been brought up, but I think the biggest problem with this kind of stuff is what happens to these kids when they finally leave the nest and are totally unprepared for the real world because they've been sheltered from it.

Unprepared people fail.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

People can believe in whatever they want, and be raised however they want, as long as they are not physically or emotionally being abused.

And that is the beauty of a free country.

Something we should all appreciate.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Azure

So what do you propose?

Laws that force you to raise your children in a certain way? Good luck with that.

Exactly.

You know what you end up with when that happens?

Residential schools.

No Thankyou!!!

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I didn't read the entire thread, so this may have already been brought up, but I think the biggest problem with this kind of stuff is what happens to these kids when they finally leave the nest and are totally unprepared for the real world because they've been sheltered from it.

Unprepared people fail.

I don't really think this applies here either.

Their son, the oldest child, won a scholarship and is living 5 or 6 hours from home. He has adapted very well.

I don't think this family is leaving their children unprepared. They have computers, the daughter who was hilited in the videos even has her own blog where she answers questions from the general public.