Religious child abuse, a real case for it....?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

So you accept diversity so long as it does not include people who have views diverse from your own?

When have I suggested that?

I think a healthy child should be brought up understanding and being tought about all world religions, about religious history, about non religion, about freethought and critical and rational thinking.

I want a child to grow up having the chance to decide for themselves when they are old enough to decide for themselves, and that I have exposed them to as much variety of information and experiences as I can.

Because ultimately a child brought up aggressively as an atheist is no better than a child brought up aggressively as a christian.

A child should be exposed to much more and given a chance to grow up and decide their own ideals/beliefs as they get closer to adulthood.

A child can't decide whether jesus or santa is real. As parents we should be giving them a chance to learn and decide for themselves, not forcing them into a pigeon hole at a young age.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well again thats why its important to watch the entire thing, because you should decide for yourself and of course judge it as you see fit.

Some of the things I am disturbed by I already posted about the shame, guilt and indoctrination of these kids, but there is a deeper issue about how they are brought up for a young age to believe they are deeply flawed, sinners, and that if they don't conform to the bible they go to hell, so at a very young age these kids are in fear of hellfire, which is real to them.

But again, watching the entire 50 something mins is really the point, if you want to argue for or against this way of raising kids you need to at least do that, but I'm thinking it would take a miracle to find anyone wanting to defend these parents.

Don't get me wrong, I think people like this are nutters. But, what are you going to do, put their kids in foster care? I would be totally opposed to intervening simply based on someone's belief system. If you can demonstrate that they are unhealthy or unhappy or have a clinical mental illness as a result of their parenting, then fine.

[peter12]

The family might be a bit strange, but the idea that the state should intervene in this family just to fulfill Thor's personal desires on how to raise a family is pure lunacy. In fact, I find Thor's opinion to be rather frightening.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that personally I disagree almost entirely with the family's methods etc... but I don't have a right to tell another family how to behave. I'm just a human being like them. Just because I understand evolution a lot better than this family, doesn't necessarily make me a better person.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Dion

They are not being physically or sexualy abused by thier parents.

Completely Agree.

The parents come across as loving and very caring and the children are raised in a good home.

Agree, to a point, they have done the family part extremely well but they have forgone and removed a key component to their childhood, outside life.

Deborah seems quite happy and doesn't appear to miss the things that others kids might partake in.

She doesn't very true, but she doesn't know better. Ignorance is bliss.

She goes with Matthew to see first hand the life he has made for himself. And then off to the mall. Or off to a party and to be questioned about it the next day. It's not as if she's been totaly shut off from the world.

No but before she is exposed to anything outside her little world she has been repeatedly indoctrinated and taught to handle any outside contact.

My impressions of Deborah is that she's very bright and intelligent young gal.

I agree fully, if she was brought up by my parents she'd probably end up someone I'd have a real respect for debating, because she IS intelligent, but her worldview is very very narrow.

What about the parents that don't expose thier children to religion? Should we look down on them because they don't expose them to a belief system?

That's not abuse in my books.

Nope. Like I said in my first post, I don't see religious upbringing as abuse. I see abuse when its like this, removing their kids from society, removing them from contrary beliefs or ideas.

The key to bringing up a healthy citizen of this world is to have them learn and appreciate other ideas/beliefs at a young age. To be brought up as critical and rational people who have a base understanding of not only their parents beliefs but the beliefs of the people they share this planet with.

To isolate and remove them from society is harmful, no matter how apologetic you might be for religion, this is not healthy for a education and development of a child.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Don't get me wrong, I think people like this are nutters. But, what are you going to do, put their kids in foster care? I would be totally opposed to intervening simply based on someone's belief system. If you can demonstrate that they are unhealthy or unhappy or have a clinical mental illness as a result of their parenting, then fine.

I don't see a real justification to step in, nor would I be out there promoting it.

I just think the best we can do as a society is be shocked by it and hope that this kind of thing becomes less and less common in our future.

[MelBridgeman]

This thread is indoctrination. Stop abusing me.

[Dion]

Unsurprisingly, Deborah's views reflected an immaturity and I guess she will reflect further on many issues. Yes, she might have taken on board her parents' views uncritically, but don't most children?

However, to deliberately seek to humiliate and ridicule a 13 year old girl by broadcasting her (no doubt heavily edited) views and setting up encounters to trip her up was ethically dubious.

For all of the apparent extremes of her family lifestyle and the blunt expression of her Christian faith, I was left in no doubt that Deborah had a better foundation for her life than the drunken, smoking, sexually immoral, celebrity-obsessed fashion victims who were presented as paragons of normality. As a society, what are we most in danger of? Kids being too sheltered, or kids being exposed to a vulgar, pornographic, drunken and violent youth culture at an ever younger age?

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Sni...ced.5068859.jp

[peter12]

Sorry, Thor. What is your definition of outside life? What makes your definition remarkably better than theirs' to the point of their methods being labeled as abuse?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by peter12

The family might be a bit strange, but the idea that the state should intervene in this family just to fulfill Thor's personal desires on how to raise a family is pure lunacy. In fact, I find Thor's opinion to be rather frightening.

Wow, assumptions abound!

The state cannot intervene, but we can be upset and shaken when children are removed from society for whatever belief it may be for, racist, cults, religion, et al.

Jill Mytton was a former child of a famous UK cult, they completely isolated themselves from UK society and still exists today, if your interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXA7GA9yntc

Where do we draw the line, in one sense Jill now helps former cult members get back into society, but there is no danger that her parents or other cult member parents could face legal charges unless we have physical abuse or something akin to the mormon polygamist cults where underage girls are forced to marry old men.

The point is the line to draw from healthy upbringing should be that the child grows up in the real world, in private/public schools, part of society and able to learn about the world around them.

If you are arguing against me here that parents should be OK to isolate and teach their children anything they want, I won't disagree, its the right of parents.. But if you accept this is acceptable, I don't see how you can justify this.

[peter12]

I absolutely do not think it is unreasonable to be offended, annoyed, perplexed, disturbed or whatever when parents choose to raise their children in an environment that though free from mental and physical abuse might be stricter or more rigid than I can personally tolerate.

However, in the specific case of the video, I saw very little evidence to suggest that there was any direct abuse. For crying out loud, the girls were not being taught hatred, they seemed kind, and they were allowed internet access in their rooms with the doors closed.

The parents and siblings were very clear about their love and enjoyment of one another.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by peter12

Sorry, Thor. What is your definition of outside life? What makes your definition remarkably better than theirs' to the point of their methods being labeled as abuse?

So would you be ok with a child being brought up in the Waco compound without access to the outside world being taught the outside world is evil, sinners, and corrupt?

My definition? I've already repeatedly said I have no problem with religious families bringing their children up religious, but if they remove their children from society and don't expose them to the real world I think that's a real case for abuse.

A child should be brought up in an environment where they can be exposed to ideas, ideologies and beliefs outside their own parents. How else could we live in a world without hatred and intolerance??

You think those Palestinian children being brought up from birth being told their mortal enemy is the Jew is ok? By your definintion as long as they are brought up in a religious family its ok.

When does the line cross from Deborah to Mohammed from a Palastine terrortory being told the world is evil, their duty is to destroy the jew, etc..

When does belief become harmful?

I challenge that idea, because within the realms of each culture, should we raise children who are inflexible and staunch in their belief or to we raise children who are flexible and open minded.

[Dion]

http://deborahdrapper.com/

[Thor]

Originally Posted by peter12

I absolutely do not think it is unreasonable to be offended, annoyed, perplexed, disturbed or whatever when parents choose to raise their children in an environment that though free from mental and physical abuse might be stricter or more rigid than I can personally tolerate.

However, in the specific case of the video, I saw very little evidence to suggest that there was any direct abuse. For crying out loud, the girls were not being taught hatred, they seemed kind, and they were allowed internet access in their rooms with the doors closed.

The parents and siblings were very clear about their love and enjoyment of one another.

So is the case of cults, mind you most cults would remove internet

But who knows if the parents limit the access they have, I'm assuming they definitely do, but we don't know for sure.

How is intolerance not being taught when the child believes they are sinners, they are flawed human beings? They are told hellfire IS real, that society is inherently sinful and evil?

If this same family lived in Palestine would you think this behavior ok?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Dion

http://deborahdrapper.com/

Like I said, smart girl.

However she does believe in Creationism and adam/eve correct? Unless you've found anything different.

The fact is she still believes that people need to be 'saved' and have no way to salvation but through Jesus.

http://deborahdrapper.com/275/

So again, my point, is this is beneficial to the world in what way? Its an absolutism, Jesus or else! and its why Islam and Christianity/Judaism/Catholicism are on a collision course.

Each one thinks they are 100% right and have the authority of their version of the truth.

She didn't have a chance to form an opinion of her own, she was told without much confusion what to believe, what to say and what to do. While being removed from normal society.

That she is finally being exposed to real life, I bet in 5-10yrs this same girl will have a vastly different view on what she see's as sacred today.

[Bagor]

You wanna talk child abuse?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Thor

The fact is Thor still believes that people need to be atheist and have no way to salvation but through beer and Britney Spears.

http://Thor.com/275/

So again, my point, is this is beneficial to the world in what way? Its an absolute Atheist or it's abuse! and its why Islam and Christianity/Judaism/Catholicism are on a collision course, because they are not Atheist.

fixed.

[Thor]

Replace Britney Spears with Jessica Alba and we have an agreement

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Thor

The fact is she still believes that people need to be 'saved'

I guess you two have something in common.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I guess you two have something in common.

So right.

I think people should live their lives as they see fit, as long as its rational and critical of the world they live in.

She thinks people have to live exactly as her parents have taught her and if anyone doesn't agree they will burn in hell and be in eternal damnation.

Twins.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Thor

So right.

I think people should live their lives as they see fit, as long as its rational and critical of the world they live in.

She thinks people have to live exactly as her parents have taught her and if anyone doesn't agree they will burn in hell and be in eternal damnation.

Twins.

Lol I suppose, but I mean, what's the harm really...the world is full of all sorts of people, I am on your side in terms of belief, but if she is smart enough, she will challenge what she believes at some point in her life..if not well that just the way goes...one lesson I have learnt in life, it is hard to change people, whether what they do is good or bad..or if our beliefs are different...in this case, the family seems to be very loving, something that is really lacking in this world...but the fact that a film crew was allowed into their lives, the brother off at college, she being allowed to visit him...i suspect some bias on the part of the film crew..