Scouts Canada - "No Atheists Allowed"

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Swarly

I cant speak for other athiests but I do celebrate christmas and easter with my family. as far as I am concerned there is nothing very religious in the way we, or most people for that matter, celebrate. Nothing more than getting together with family and eating good food.

I'll second that, I don't see much of a religious connection to bunnies leaving chocolate eggs all over the house or fat bearded men in red suits leaving presents under a tree. I'd say that a good number of us celebrate commerce at these holidays far more than we celebrate anything remotely religious.

[4X4]

As far as the OP goes, if it were me, I'd have no problem using 'non denominational' on the form and putting my kids in scouts. As far as I'm concerned, the broader the learning base, the more informed a decision they'll make when they get old enough to start thinking about it on their own.
I've mentioned before that I was raised in a religious atmosphere and didn't conclude atheism until my 20s. I see no problem with how I was raised, I just disagree with my parents and with everyone else that's religious about the existence of a god. And I do it knowing much more about the bible than alot of christians.
I can see why you, trout, are a little surprised and perhaps annoyed by the religious requirement, but if anything, it'll just give your boys more food for thought.
Scouts is about learning to tie knots and build campfires. I'm fairly sure that the religious undertones are minimal. If it turns out that the particular scoutmaster is a hardcore bible thumper, then it's your prerogative to pull your kids out. But chances are that the extent of their exposure to religion in scouts will be part of the creed and maybe a prayer or something. No biggie, I'd say.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by peter12

Private organizations should get to do what they want in regards to belief.

so I can start a youth group with the sole purpose of teaching children to avoid people named peter?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by photon

Cadets don't start until a bit older, but they are a good experience as well.

Best part about Cadets:

Broom ball.

A b@stard-son hybrid of field hockey, rugby, and soccer, broom ball is full contact cross-checking crazyness.

Must be played on half-thawed slush in the months of March or April.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

I think it's funny that cadets has come up in this thread....when trying to explain my time in the army to friends I always say it's like the boy scouts with weapons......

[Cheese]

reminds me of an old joke...

when does a Cub become a Scout?
after he eats his first Brownie.

sorry...really

anyways...more BSA stuff...seems they aint as Green as they suggest either.

Profit trumps preservation for Boy Scout


A Hearst Newspapers investigation has found dozens of cases over the past 20 years of local Boy Scout councils logging or selling prime woodlands to big timber interests, developers or others, turning quick money and often doing so instead of seeking ways to preserve such lands.
"In public, they say they want to teach kids about saving the environment," said Jane Childers, a longtime Scouting volunteer in Washington who has fought against Scouts' logging. "But in reality, it's all about the money."

[krazycanuck]

If you're an organization I think you can choose to accept whichever members you want. If we're to start up a Calgary Flames fan club, would we accept fans of the Oilers?

When I was growing up, you had to try out for a football or any high school team...if you weren't good enough, you didn't play.

As much fun as it would be to become a Shriner. If I'm an athiest, I don't think driving around little red cars and wearing a fuzzy hat would be worth it to have to declare a supreme being.

If you don't believe in the organization of the scouts, very simply...why would you want to support such a group by becoming a member?

[troutman]

Activist Groups Urge Obama to Reject Boy Scout Honor

Critics, outraged that the Boy Scouts of America are allowed to exclude gays and atheists while receiving federal funding, want the president to reject the title of honorary president of the Scouts.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...enounce-group/

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by krazycanuck

When I was growing up, you had to try out for a football or any high school team...if you weren't good enough, you didn't play.

That's a little bit different than joining an organization like the Boy Scouts.

But sports is interesting. How about and ad like this in the Herald?

--------------------------------------------

South Calgary Hockey League

All children between the ages of 5 and 16 are welcome to join the new South Calgary Hockey League.

Call 555-1234

Christians Not Allowed

---------------------------------------------

I wonder how many complaints that would bring. Why, I'll bet it would generate all sorts of heated discussion, accompanied by death threats to the good man @ 555-1234.

And even more importantly, it just flat out wouldn't be allowed.

But it's okay when the heathens are discriminated against.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by macker

Maybe there is a market for :
Christian Scouts
Islam Scouts
Secular Scouts
Hindu Scouts
Judaism Scouts
Buddhism Scouts
Atheist Scouts etc. etc. etc.

We can then slot our kids accordingly. I think they will be most comfortable in this type of setting and their beliefs will be least impacted..

Certainly would be sad world if that's what we did with our kids. Exposure at a young age to different beliefs/non belief, backgrounds, race, etc.. these are all good things to raising a solid citizen of the world.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That's a little bit different than joining an organization like the Boy Scouts.

But sports is interesting. How about and ad like this in the Herald?

--------------------------------------------

South Calgary Hockey League

All children between the ages of 5 and 16 are welcome to join the new South Calgary Hockey League.

Call 555-1234

Christians Not Allowed

---------------------------------------------

I wonder how many complaints that would bring. Why, I'll bet it would generate all sorts of heated discussion, accompanied by death threats to the good man @ 555-1234.

And even more importantly, it just flat out wouldn't be allowed.

But it's okay when the heathens are discriminated against.

Not only that, this would appear on CNN, Fox news, BBC world news, Arab TV stations.

It would bring the world of condemnation down HARD on this city, journalists flying into Calgary, calling for the head of this fictitious league and the organizers.

But change to Atheists and BAM not only does almost no one get upset, most just accept it as being totally fine.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'll second that, I don't see much of a religious connection to bunnies leaving chocolate eggs all over the house or fat bearded men in red suits leaving presents under a tree. I'd say that a good number of us celebrate commerce at these holidays far more than we celebrate anything remotely religious.

Clearly you've never heard of the Immaculate Confection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfamPW3Eaw

[driveway]

FWIW I was raised completely atheist and was in Scouting for about eight years, Cubs and Scouts. I had a blast in both, largely because of the awesome troops I was part of (Triwood 4th Elks Cub Troop and the now defunct 107th St. David's Scout Troop). The only time there was ever any religiousness of any kind was the one time I had to attend a service at the Church our Scout troop met in. I carried a flag and sat in the front row in uniform. This was an arangement our troop had worked out with the church as part of our use of their space to hold meetings.

Scouting was AWESOME. It was by far one of the best experiences of my life, I did so many cool things in scouts: canoe trip down the red-deer river, regional camp in the badlands - landing before time it was called, anyone remember that? Alberta and Canada Jamborees, Biking camp to Kananaskis, crazy winter sleeping in snow caves camping... etc. etc.

My advice would be to sign your kids up and just send them off. If they come home complaining about either a) religious activities or b) too much emphasis on badge-getting, move them to another troop.

Badges should be incidental to the activities. You go do something because it's awesome and get a badge as a result - not simply doing everything in an effort to get badges.

Scouting rules.

[Devils'Advocate]

I was the worlds worst scout. The only knot I can tie is in my shoelaces. When we were trying to get our nature badge we had to be able to identify different species of trees and I would just say "Birch?" when it was my turn to answer the scoutmaster. But I had a lot of fun and there was never any mention of God outside the pledge.. and then you had to pledge allegiance to the Queen as well so you knew you didn't really mean any of it. I think depriving your kid of the scouting experience for the sake of the minor religious aspect is unfair to the kid.

HOWEVER, I think pressure needs to be put on them to change their rules just as we would any organization that banned women, or banned blacks, or banned Jewish people. Discrimination, though their choice, should be fought with determination.

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by driveway

FWIW I was raised completely atheist and was in Scouting for about eight years, Cubs and Scouts. I had a blast in both, largely because of the awesome troops I was part of (Triwood 4th Elks Cub Troop and the now defunct 107th St. David's Scout Troop). The only time there was ever any religiousness of any kind was the one time I had to attend a service at the Church our Scout troop met in. I carried a flag and sat in the front row in uniform. This was an arangement our troop had worked out with the church as part of our use of their space to hold meetings.

Scouting was AWESOME. It was by far one of the best experiences of my life, I did so many cool things in scouts: canoe trip down the red-deer river, regional camp in the badlands - landing before time it was called, anyone remember that? Alberta and Canada Jamborees, Biking camp to Kananaskis, crazy winter sleeping in snow caves camping... etc. etc.

My advice would be to sign your kids up and just send them off. If they come home complaining about either a) religious activities or b) too much emphasis on badge-getting, move them to another troop.

Badges should be incidental to the activities. You go do something because it's awesome and get a badge as a result - not simply doing everything in an effort to get badges.

Scouting rules.

I agree, I was a Beaver and Cub for 6 years, never really pushed any religion on me, we did all our stuff in a Church, but I never thought they were pushing it, or even discussing it.

They do talk about God, but not that much.

Just to give you an idea, my dad is a scout leader and he is an athiest for the most part. I say most part because he is technically Catholic, but doesn't support it (praying, going to church, don't mention God).

[RougeUnderoos]

Just by reading the last few posts, it's obvious that the Scouts offer (and by all accounts provide) a great opportunity for children to make friends, have fun, go camping, learn cool and useful things and have all sorts of great and memorable experiences.

I have to question both the morality and sanity of a "man" who would bar a 5-year-old from these activities (or anything else beneficial) because of the child's theological beliefs.

I mean we're talking about a person who spends his days learning how to read, tell time and making vroom-vroom noises with a toy car on the floor. Denying a little boy valuable social and educational experiences based on his thoughts about God and the universe is simply idiotic.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Time for them to bring back the swastika.

Don't be silly.
It's been regarded time and again that the Nazi's didn't promote Christianity. But if they did, it wasn't anything mainstream.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by bcb

Don't be silly.
It's been regarded time and again that the Nazi's didn't promote Christianity. But if they did, it wasn't anything mainstream.

A popular image of the Nazis is that they were fundamentally anti-Christian while devout Christians were anti-Nazi. The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God. German Christianity was a divinely sanctioned religious movement which combined Christian doctrine and German character in a unique and desirable manner: True Christianity was German and True German-ness was Christian.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...iChristian.htm

Racism amongst religion is as long as history, and anti-antisemitism amongst Catholics, Christians and Muslims is to this day evident.

Nazi Germany was a Christian/Catholic nation which supported, not surprisingly a theocratic type following of a leader 'sent from God' and the ground work was done by people of faith, the ground work of extermination.

You can't pretend that all bad things happen because of extremism in religion, even if the moderates aren't actively participating; they are not openly and aggressively fighting against that behavior.

[Rathji]

Wouldn't having this wording protect the Scouts organization from needing to alter their ceremonies and stuff because they contain the words God etc? A public school can't have a Christmas Festival since it offends people, but it can have a Winter one.

Most non-LDS scout troops have no more religion in them than singing the national anthem. I don't recall any religious overtones when I was a Cub or a Scout.

[Rhettzky]

Maybe you could join the troop with them. They're always looking for leaders and the time committment isn't too intense. Bottle drives, camp outs, going to the meetings, and you'd be driving your kids there anyways.

When they get a bit older and join cubs you could also 'accidentaly' sew their religion badges on upside down.