Scouts Canada - "No Atheists Allowed"

[Thor]

Originally Posted by photon

Of course, I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Just that they WOULD restrict on something so dumb is stupid. Especially for kids. Great thing to teach kids.

This is why Atheists are out of the closet, we still see people openly calling godless people immoral and much worse.

You see that stuff on Fox, CNN, newspapers, etc.. Its amazing how people can argue for not discriminating based on religion or race, but when its discrimination for people with no belief its open season on them.

Its no joke to say in America its more acceptable to be gay than it is to be openly irreligious, at least in many parts of the country.

Stories like this should raise awareness, too bad the media here in Canada makes nothing out of this, like I said before insert Jew or any other 'group' instead of Atheist and there would be massive public outrage, even IF the scouts had every right as a private organization to exclude children they deem unworthy.

That raises a question, in Canada do the scouts receive any public funding at all?

[cyclone3483]

Originally Posted by photon

Of course, I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Just that they WOULD restrict on something so dumb is stupid. Especially for kids. Great thing to teach kids.

Ya, I agree. I look at the YMCA in that light. Essentially, it started as a Christian community outreach for men. They did not exclude non-Christians because it was an 'outreach'. I think the Scouts are kind of short-sighted to make that kind of restriction.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think we will register as agnostic or n/a. The pros of the program far outweigh the cons IMO. I think a local group tried to start a secular scouting troop, but I don't know how far it got.

n/a sounds good, I would think they would allow your kids in even if you do that; lets hope anyhow.

Can't you just put Pastafarian?

[Ford Prefect]

They don't allow atheists but they do allow girls. Isn't that enough confusion for a bunch of prepubescent boys? Confusing them about religion as well would be kind of cruel. That debate (god/no god) is best left university where it can be properly hashed out over beer and pot.

[macker]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

They don't allow atheists but they do allow girls. Isn't that enough confusion for a bunch of prepubescent boys? Confusing them about religion as well would be kind of cruel. That debate (god/no god) is best left university where it can be properly hashed out over beer and pot.

I think most KIDS would tell you that they draw security and comfort from knowing that there is a God.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by macker

I think most KIDS would tell you that they draw security and comfort from knowing that there is a God.

Exactly, so why start the debate until they're older. That's what I was trying to get at.

Personally though, I found religion scary and intimidating as a kid. Security, comfort and love were definitely not adjectives I would have used at the time. Fear, loathing and eternal damnation would have been more like it.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Exactly, so why start the debate until they're older. That's what I was trying to get at.

Personally though, I found religion scary and intimidating as a kid. Security, comfort and love were definitely not adjectives I would have used at the time.

When I was growing up, for most of my friends minus a few, religion/god was so unimportant in our lives, Ghostbusters and Hockey was more important to me than anything.

Santa was a bigger deal than God for every kid I knew growing up, and well we all know how that story turns out.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by macker

I think most KIDS would tell you that they draw security and comfort from knowing that there is a God.

thats up to the parents to decide ...

i didnt know this about Scouts and there is no chance I would let my kids join such a close minded outfit. there is no place for religion outside of the walls of the church's and houses's they are practised in.

as a consumer, i can choose to not support groups like Scouts that want to use my children for their ulterior motives. i certainly hope as a taxpayer they arent getting funding for their programs.

like someone said above, insert {jew, muslim, black, chinese} and there would be an outrage.

[macker]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Exactly, so why start the debate until they're older. That's what I was trying to get at.

Personally though, I found religion scary and intimidating as a kid. Security, comfort and love were definitely not adjectives I would have used at the time. Fear, loathing and eternal damnation would have been more like it.

I don't think you need to debate anything. Without going to extremes I think this is a valuable idea for a child to have. It doesn't mean that you need to stream into them "he's got the whole world in his hands" etc. but you also don't need to stream NIN : Heresy either. Kid's don't need all the answers but to know that there is a God is not a bad thing. Faith like a child etc...

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by macker

I think most KIDS would tell you that they draw security and comfort from knowing that there is a God.

really you think kids have any concept of god, can they explain the trinity, of the application of free will when dealing with a being that knows and has planned all your life?

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by macker

I don't think you need to debate anything. Without going to extremes I think this is a valuable idea for a child to have. It doesn't mean that you need to stream into them "he's got the whole world in his hands" etc. but you also don't need to stream NIN : Heresy either. Kid's don't need all the answers but to know that there is a God is not a bad thing. Faith like a child etc...

You're missing my point. I wasn't advocating having this debate with kids. I suggested it's an adult debate and should be deferred until kids become adults, ie, university age. Are you maintaining that university students are not adults, or that the debate should never be engaged in at all, at any age? If so, we clearly are wasting each other's time here.

[macker]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

thats up to the parents to decide ...

i didnt know this about Scouts and there is no chance I would let my kids join such a close minded outfit. there is no place for religion outside of the walls of the church's and houses's they are practised in.

as a consumer, i can choose to not support groups like Scouts that want to use my children for their ulterior motives. i certainly hope as a taxpayer they arent getting funding for their programs.

like someone said above, insert {jew, muslim, black, chinese} and there would be an outrage.

You didn't know it because it is not a big deal. They are not in any way overt on any of this. It is a great place for kids to learn new skills. If you choose to have limited tolerance I guess you could make the case that your child will have limited experiences....

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by macker

You didn't know it because it is not a big deal. They are not in any way overt on any of this. It is a great place for kids to learn new skills. If you choose to have limited tolerance I guess you could make the case that your child will have limited experiences....

for emphasis:

there is no place for religion outside of the walls of the church's and houses's they are practised in.

[macker]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

really you think kids have any concept of god, can they explain the trinity, of the application of free will when dealing with a being that knows and has planned all your life?

A child definitely has a concept of god. You may not but that is not my point. Most of these debates are better left at a kid's level because you really don't get anywhere arguing matters of the heart...

[macker]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

for emphasis:

I signed the application form and I skipped right past this part....I guess I am going to tell my son that we are mistakingly in a cult and that the big print givith and the small print taketh away...

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by macker

A child definitely has a concept of god. You may not but that is not my point. Most of these debates are better left at a kid's level because you really don't get anywhere arguing matters of the heart...

no way, kids have the same opinion of god that they do super heroes, fairies, or the boogie man.

You may be surprised about my concept of knowledged of your alleged god.....

[photon]

Originally Posted by macker

If you choose to have limited tolerance I guess you could make the case that your child will have limited experiences....

Well actually it's the Scouts that are having the limited tolerance, with the rejecting the atheist's kids and all.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by macker

I signed the application form and I skipped right past this part....I guess I am going to tell my son that we are mistakingly in a cult and that the big print givith and the small print taketh away...

actually, as a parent you have the right to make that choice for your kids. so join and be happy.

i just dont like outside organizations using their influence in such a manner.

[macker]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

actually, as a parent you have the right to make that choice for your kids. so join and be happy.

i just dont like outside organizations using their influence in such a manner.

Maybe some of the Scouts policies and procedures manuals need to be updated a little bit as I am not sure when they last did this. Atheists have only recently started pushing back so I can definitely see the Scouts updating things to make them feel more included. I don't think they need to change anything other then a few words in fine print and it is a great organization that I will continue to support regardless. Go and experience it and don't worry so much about not being included.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by macker

...Go and experience it and don't worry so much about not being included.

actually, i am not an atheist so I would be included. however, i have a problem with organizations using their influence on children in a religious manner. overtly or covertly, its all the same.

religion belongs in the home.

i respect everyone's right to their religion, in fact if you want to pray to a doorknob, have at it and i will respect it. just keep it out of my life.