Bus transit to Airdrie, Cochrane and others coming soon?

[DESS]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well then the problem isnt the communities it's the city planning. It's been apparent for quite some time that Calgary is becoming very close to these outlying cities like Airdrie and Cochrane and that a lot of the people that live in these places are part of the Calgary work force. The city should have planned it better and seems to be reactionary rather than proactive about these situations. Dont blame the people who choose to live in areas where it's cheaper (although not by much I dont think).

Well the entire basis of my argument is these roads should serve Calgarians and non-satellite city commuters first and foremost during rush hour. So regardless of how we ended up with an inferior road system, we have one. The first step, IMO, is to limit the number of satellite city commuters from the parasite communities through the toll. Some will alter their work schedules to avoid the toll, some will carpool to limit the impact of the toll, and some will pay the toll. The first two of these outcomes work towards solving the problem we have right now (congestion) and the third compensates Calgarians for the people that choose to commute from out of town.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by DESS

Well the entire basis of my argument is these roads should serve Calgarians and non-satellite city commuters first and foremost during rush hour. So regardless of how we ended up with an inferior road system, we have one. The first step, IMO, is to limit the number of satellite city commuters from the parasite communities through the toll. Some will alter their work schedules to avoid the toll, some will carpool to limit the impact of the toll, and some will pay the toll. The first two of these outcomes work towards solving the problem we have right now (congestion) and the third compensates Calgarians for the people that choose to commute from out of town.

You know I actually don't mind the idea of a toll, as long as the money goes to what it supposed to (ie. Updating the roads in order to accommodate everyone. The problem I have is you seem to blaming the people who live outside of the city which isnt the case. The living costs in Calgary are very high and if they want to avoid it for the 1hour+ drive to work every morning so be it.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by DESS

The first step, IMO, is to limit the number of satellite city commuters from the parasite communities through the toll. Some will alter their work schedules to avoid the toll, some will carpool to limit the impact of the toll, and some will pay the toll.

They'll just alter their path into the city. Unless you're going to toll all of the roads going in and out of the city, they're going to find another way. It isn't an option.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill and barking up the wrong tree at the same time. There are bigger issues. If our road system can't handle the extra 1000 cars a day, there is no way they'll be able to handle Calgary's expansion in the next 10 years. Trying to reduce cars from entering the city will not only not solve the problem, it will also not address the real issue... putting it off for a more expensive and invasive (more cars diverted) 'fix' later.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by calculoso

They'll just alter their path into the city. Unless you're going to toll all of the roads going in and out of the city, they're going to find another way. It isn't an option.

Honestly, you're making a mountain out of a molehill and barking up the wrong tree at the same time. There are bigger issues. If our road system can't handle the extra 1000 cars a day, there is no way they'll be able to handle Calgary's expansion in the next 10 years. Trying to reduce cars from entering the city will not only not solve the problem, it will also not address the real issue... putting it off for a more expensive and invasive (more cars diverted) 'fix' later.

It's thousands of cars, not a thousand cars. In fact, it's anywhere from 6 to 8+% of the volume (see earlier posts). And I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm 100% on topic. This thread is about commuter movement to/from Airdrie, Cochrane and other similar communities and that's what I'm discussing.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Love the tags on this thread.... "parasite communities, troll roads" haha... is the last one a pun?

Yes

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by DESS

It's thousands of cars, not a thousand cars. In fact, it's anywhere from 6 to 8+% of the volume (see earlier posts). And I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm 100% on topic. This thread is about commuter movement to/from Airdrie, Cochrane and other similar communities and that's what I'm discussing.

That's why it's a mountain out of a molehill. Your focus isn't on the big issue.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by calculoso

That's why it's a mountain out of a molehill. Your focus isn't on the big issue.

My focus is on the issue that can be readily solved with current infrastructure and a net financial gain for Calgary. I think I've covered my bases. This system could be up in a year (were it not for red tape, lol). Building new roads and rail lines are unlikely to happen before I retire.

[mykalberta]

What benefit does this provide to Calgary tax payers?

[DESS]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

What benefit does this provide to Calgary tax payers?

Money from the tolls.

[mykalberta]

I have been advocating toll roads in both Edmonton and Calgary for 8 yearss so hopefully yes but I dont think it will come to pass unfortunately.

[Madman]

Originally Posted by DESS

My focus is on the issue that can be readily solved with current infrastructure and a net financial gain for Calgary. I think I've covered my bases. This system could be up in a year (were it not for red tape, lol). Building new roads and rail lines are unlikely to happen before I retire.

You better cap all growth for the City then too by your logic.

If the City can't handle the traffic increase from outlying communities, then there is no chance they'll be able to handle the growth of the City itself.

Or if you are stuck in a traffic jam that is 100% home grown, will there be rainbows and butterflies everywhere?

What about people who commute further than Airdre etc? What about Fort Macleod or Crossfield or Vulcan or Starthmore? You better tax them too - but wait, how will you know they are coming into town strictly to come to work? What if they have a specialist appointment at the Foothills Hospital? Or are Hospitals yours too?

Where is the cutoff distance for your toll? Why would you toll daily commuters that spend money daily in the City and not toll people who are visiting or vacationing for 1 or only a handful of days? They are inserting less revenue into the City than the daily commuters are.

We better disperse Provincial and Federal funding by area then too. Because any money a non-Calgarian puts into Calgary somehow becomes yours and yours alone. Who is funding the Deerfoot Improvements? Who is funding the Ring Road? Who is funding the Crowchild improvements? Fack, who is funding the LRT expansion? You guessed it, the Proince and the Feds - who everyone pays taxes into. Give your head a shake and do some of your own damn research.

[Madman]

Oh I forgot - DESS, do you ever travel east or west of the City on the Trans Canada highway?

If so, you better get your wallet ready and bend over, because I have a feeling Canmore, Strathmore, Brooks, Medicine Hat, Swift Current, etc etc will be offering you the same friendly hospitality.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Madman

Oh I forgot - DESS, do you ever travel east or west of the City on the Trans Canada highway?

If so, you better get your wallet ready and bend over, because I have a feeling Canmore, Strathmore, Brooks, Medicine Hat, Swift Current, etc etc will be offering you the same friendly hospitality.

Don't forget the Calgary toll on the way back into Calgary....

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Madman

Enjoyed my drive on Deerfoot down to my house in Okotoks today.

Thanks suckers!!

That must of been you i passed on my way home to High River

[Nehkara]

This idea is ridiculous but so is exterminating all bears and banning dogs.

There will be a substantial number of people who must use the highway during those times and you would be financially crippling them and their families. It works out to about $7500/year. Insanity. Not only that but the problem will likely be partially addressed by the Ring Road.

You need to find something worthwhile to put your "problem solving" skills to work on.

[kdoir345]

Originally Posted by DESS

Not always. Southbound Deerfoot is completely gridlocked and usually at a virtual standstill before the first Calgary exit at Country Hills BLVD in the North because of people coming into the City from Airdrie.

I'm working on a petition to charge Airdrie drivers a $15 toll per trip into Calgary made between 6:30 a.m. and 9 a.m. Monday - Friday. If they choose to exit Calgary between 3:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m., it's another $15. It is obsene we let people from another city obstruct our roads while dodging our civic taxes and hampering our own citizens' abilities to travel freely.

I have to do more research on the subject, as I'm not sure what proportion of Deerfoot trail is paid for by Calgary municiapl taxes (I'm assuming some, but I could be wrong). Regardless, there are solutions to the Airdrie problem, and I think they need to be persued aggressively.

Sounds like there may be similar problems with Okotoks, Chestermere and Cochrane, which I had assumed, but as I said I'm still at the early stages of putting my proposal together. I'll make an effort to draft my petition to incorporate these parisite cities/towns as well.

The toll should be fairly economical to enforce. I'm thinking a multi-nova sort of system that can flag license plates from these satellite communitites. The commuters would receive a bill at the end of each month.





The goal of this plan is to encourage these people to take one or more of the following steps:

• adjust their work hours out of peak times
• work from home
• carpool to share costs

If you guys are interested, I'll post my petition package here in a few weeks for comments/feedback. I will also be circulating petitions for people to sign and send in to the appropriate authorities once my research is complete. Normally I wouldn't have posted this on here as I don't have all my information straight, but I see no harm in letting you guys know that there are people looking seriously at this issue in hopes of coming up with an immediate (relatively speaking, we are talking about government lol) fix.

Just curious since you seem to be all for the tolls and what not, but if you dont mind where do you commute to and from for work?

I admit that I work downtown and commute in from Chestermere. The funny thing though is before I bought my place out here it took me longer to get to my office when I lived in Pineridge (in Calgary) then it does now coming in from Chestermere. If it is all the people that are coming in from these "parasite" communities that are creating all this gridlock, why is it that now that I am one of those "parasites" it takes less time to get to work then it did when I was actually living in the city?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Don't forget the Calgary toll on the way back into Calgary....

No, no, under this incredibly well thought out plan only people who live outside of calgary have to pay. If you live in Calgary and travel outside the city you can slip by for free, genius really. There's just the small issue of it being blatantly unconstitutional.

There's nothing wrong with toll roads, they're pretty much essential in a large city, but you can't pick and choose who has to pay the toll.

[Bunk]

It's amazing how people react to things without exploring or understanding the facts.

The initiative for regional transit is a provincial direction. They are preparing regional plans for the two major cities as well as super-regional plans for 7 major watersheds in Alberta.

The first phase regional transit proposal will likely be to connect satellite communities like Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks etc to LRT stations in the city. There is a recognition that it is best to have a single operator (Calgary transit) run this service for integration and efficiency sake. Of course that means that satellite communities will have to contribute financially in some capacity to the operating expense of this system. This will be worked out.

In the longer term, heavy rail like a GO Train system will take replace much of the bus service and take many more people directly into downtown, with perhaps one or two stops within Calgary in between.

It's best that transit operate seamlessly in the region so that as you cross a municipal boundary, you don't have to pay a double fare or work with incongruent scheduling. This is a big problem in the GTA for instance where transit systems are fragmented. People move about urban regions blind to municipal boundaries, it's an area where regional integration make sense. That said, everyone will NEED to pay their fair share. Calgary tax-payers should not bare the burden. In fact, I'd just as soon want a total amalgamation of the Calgary region into one super-municipality to better control growth and plan for transit. It's much simpler from a governance perspective

There will also be regional land use plans that go along with the transportation plans that will ensure conformity from local municipalities to build transit-oriented development around stations as well as increase the overall density of the community.

As far Calgary Transit and the LRT system. There is no question that it will need substantial expansion and upgrades in the near future, particularly if regional communities are linked directly in. Train platforms are in the process of being converted to handle 4 car capacity. One of the high priorities is to create a downtown subway line that will be able to handle up to 5 C-train cars. Once that is built, the NW to South line will operate under 8th downtown, but the NE to West line will remain on 7th. This will of course limit it's capacity to 4 cars, but it doesn't carry the same ridership as the NW and South lines. The SE line will run from Inglewood into downtown, dip underground around Olympic way, then run down 10th then turn north on 2nd street and terminate at Eau Claire. The SE line is currently the City's number 1 priority transportation project to get going. Funding from the province and feds is still pending. Eventually this line could be extended to form the North Central line with a subway from downtown up centre street up until about Beddington, then operation at grade northward to Country Hills in the assigned right of way. In my mind, it would have been money much better spend to build the SE LRT ahead of the SE leg of the Ring Road, which has about the same cost. Much more sustainable infrastructure and would have done a lot to reduce congestion in this quadrant - buying time before needing a ring road.

[DESS]

Great post, Bunk. Thanks for contributing to the dialogue. It sounds like a lot of the things you're talking about could be decades away. What kind of timelines are we looking at?

It would be nice if we could also look at more drastic proposals like mine that would provide immediate relief.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Madman

Oh I forgot - DESS, do you ever travel east or west of the City on the Trans Canada highway?

If so, you better get your wallet ready and bend over, because I have a feeling Canmore, Strathmore, Brooks, Medicine Hat, Swift Current, etc etc will be offering you the same friendly hospitality.

Why would they charge us? I'm sure there isn't a problem with Calgarians clogging their roads during rush hour. My proposal isn't gratuitous. Your example really isn't a good response to what I've been saying and you clearly missed the part where the toll is only in effect during rush hours Monday - Friday.

Originally Posted by Madman

You better cap all growth for the City then too by your logic.

If that's your conclusion, you're not following my logic. lol

Originally Posted by Madman

If the City can't handle the traffic increase from outlying communities, then there is no chance they'll be able to handle the growth of the City itself.

The city already can't. Where do you live? lol

I never said my proposal is going to fix all of Calgary's problems. I just want to ease some of the congestion on our roads caused by commuters from parasite communities during rush hour.

Originally Posted by Madman

What about people who commute further than Airdre etc? What about Fort Macleod or Crossfield or Vulcan or Starthmore? You better tax them too - but wait, how will you know they are coming into town strictly to come to work? What if they have a specialist appointment at the Foothills Hospital? Or are Hospitals yours too?

If they come infrequently they won't be flagged as commuters. The multi-nova type system I've described sends a bill to the commuter every month. If you are only coming into the city a few times a month for appointments or whatever, you will not be billed. Even if you come during rush hour. I'm targeting commuters during rush hour with my proposal. I've got to ask, are you even reading what I write? lol

Originally Posted by Madman

Where is the cutoff distance for your toll? Why would you toll daily commuters that spend money daily in the City and not toll people who are visiting or vacationing for 1 or only a handful of days? They are inserting less revenue into the City than the daily commuters are.

Commuters don't spend money here. They earn it, then take it back home to spend. They also pay municiapl taxes to cities other than Calgary with the money they've earned in Calgary. Do they come here to shop? Sure they do, but I'll bet they don't come during rush hour. All other times they are very welcome to come here at no charge whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Madman

We better disperse Provincial and Federal funding by area then too. Because any money a non-Calgarian puts into Calgary somehow becomes yours and yours alone. Who is funding the Deerfoot Improvements? Who is funding the Ring Road? Who is funding the Crowchild improvements? Fack, who is funding the LRT expansion? You guessed it, the Proince and the Feds - who everyone pays taxes into. Give your head a shake and do some of your own damn research.

Again, go back and read my original post. I clearly stated all of my research wasn't done. I was just giving you guys the flavour of what I'm working on since it was topical to the discussion. Well maybe the Province does fund Deerfoot 100% (STILL waiting for proof of this), I'm pretty sure it doesn't fund all of the feeder roads that come off of Deerfoot. It would be very easy to work around the Provincial ownership of Deerfoot issue by saying the toll is actually for using Calgary's infrastructure during rush hour. I mean, you have to exit Deerfoot onto a Calgary road at some point. If you're driving right through Calgary and not exiting at all, we'll have cameras that will flag that as you exit the city limits on the other side of town and cancel the charge.

Originally Posted by valo403

No, no, under this incredibly well thought out plan only people who live outside of calgary have to pay. If you live in Calgary and travel outside the city you can slip by for free, genius really. There's just the small issue of it being blatantly unconstitutional.

There's nothing wrong with toll roads, they're pretty much essential in a large city, but you can't pick and choose who has to pay the toll.

There are going to be ways to work around this...there always are.