UN anti-blasphemy measures have sinister goals, observers say

[blankall]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Tell me I didn't do that.

Obviously I'd wanted to provide a link supporting my belief that the Harper government was curtailing free speech by threatening to stop funding organizations that voiced opinions different than those of the government. As Blankall has pointed out, and as I should have discovered by looking at the main page of the site, I linked to what does appear to an antisemitic site.

I am deeply sorry for that and apologize to the forum.

I am a critic of what I believe to be poor policy as it relates to average Palestinians by the Israeli government, and have been very critical of what I believe are excesses committed by the IDF in Gaza. I am not however, an antisemite.

Thank you Blankall for pointing out my error and allowing me to set the record straight.

I accept that you didnt mean to do that intentionally, but for me this illustrates the slippery slope between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism.

Although I certainly accept that much criticism of israel is not anti-semitic it certainly isn't hard to slide down that slope.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by blankall

I accept that you didnt mean to do that intentionally, but for me this illustrates the slippery slope between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism.

Although I certainly accept that much criticism of israel is not anti-semitic it certainly isn't hard to slide down that slope.

Ahhh, but that goes both ways. It's also easy for some people to dismiss legitimate criticism of Israeli policy by pulling out the Anti-Semitism bugaboo. It's been done several times in this thread. It's no wonder people get defensive....

Those among the Palestinians, be they citizens or government, that advocate violence against and/or eradication of Israel are wrong.

Israeli military respnse is overbroad and damages the moral high ground they should otherwise be able to hold IMHO.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

Israeli military respnse is overbroad and damages the moral high ground they should otherwise be able to hold IMHO.

I disagree. I think the people who have chosen to hate Israel, are going to hate it no matter what happens. They will find an excuse. Whether its exaggerating racial segregation within Israeli society, or denying the effect of Palestinian attacks, they will find an excuse to find Israel fundamentally wrong.

This IMO is where the danger starts. When people start to analyze the Israeli motivations and what being an Israeli or a Jew is, that is where anti-semitism enters the debate very quickly.

The problem is most people making such statements have never been to Israel or met an Israeli. How many times have I heard "Israel shouldn't be in the middle east, because Israelis are white". Or "Jews are just a religious group, therefore they don't deserve sovereignty", or the reverse "the establishment of Israel is racist in itself" (funny, how they can simultaneously not a be an ethnic/racial group, yet be racist at the same time). The most egregious seems to be, "the US only supports Israel because Jews own all the money in the US". People then replace the words Jews with Israelis lobbyists and for some reason think we don't know what they are getting at.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Yeeah,

Which side turned down Clinton's proposal for peace?

I mean he is a Democrat....and all Democrats are JEW....JOOOOSS...........ZIONIST apologist warMONGERS!



RRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright?

Thanks for proving my point .

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Tell me I didn't do that.

Obviously I'd wanted to provide a link supporting my belief that the Harper government was curtailing free speech by threatening to stop funding organizations that voiced opinions different than those of the government. As Blankall has pointed out, and as I should have discovered by looking at the main page of the site, I linked to what does appear to an antisemitic site.

I am deeply sorry for that and apologize to the forum.

I am a critic of what I believe to be poor policy as it relates to average Palestinians by the Israeli government, and have been very critical of what I believe are excesses committed by the IDF in Gaza. I am not however, an antisemite.

Thank you Blankall for pointing out my error and allowing me to set the record straight.

I don't buy it. The majority of those sites are one and the same, a bunch of rhetoric and outright lies. You linked one of them, and whammo! It is what it is.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Good to see.

I admit that I am naive in this area, but its always perplexed me how people advocate so strongly that "their side" is right/the one facing all the suffering/etc while the other is the complete mean ones (yes extreme/gross over-generalization I know).

As far as I'm concerned, both sides are equally "at fault" if you will. The biggest challenge, to me, is just getting them to realize this.

I hate to say it, but I think your belief is part of the problem. If Hamas was not launching missiles, then there would have been no attack by the Israeli military. How is that they are both equally at fault??? Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is at fault for fighting them? What point are you trying to make? The VAST MAJORITY of those that support Israel want peace. The VAST Majority of those that support Hamas want to kill all the jews.

They are both equally at fault?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I hate to say it, but I think your belief is part of the problem. If Hamas was not launching missiles, then there would have been no attack by the Israeli military. How is that they are both equally at fault??? Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is at fault for fighting them? What point are you trying to make? The VAST MAJORITY of those that support Israel want peace. The VAST Majority of those that support Hamas want to kill all the jews.

They are both equally at fault?

I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that Israel has a state while Palestine does not. So by it's very nature Palestine needs to take away at least a part of Israel to exist.

It's also not fair to characterize Israelis as totally innocent. There are a ton of religious fanatics buildings settlements right now.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I hate to say it, but I think your belief is part of the problem. If Hamas was not launching missiles, then there would have been no attack by the Israeli military. How is that they are both equally at fault??? Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is at fault for fighting them? What point are you trying to make? The VAST MAJORITY of those that support Israel want peace. The VAST Majority of those that support Hamas want to kill all the jews.

They are both equally at fault?

Are you going to continue avoiding the question of Avigdor Lieberman forever? Is it because he doesn't fit into your idealized view of the 'good guys' and 'bad guys' in this conflict? It's not as black and white as you insist. Neither side can seriously claim any moral highground.

Mr. Lieberman's stated positions make it hard to call him a 'good guy'. Is that where you're having a problem?

What are the prospects for peace if Mr. Leiberman and his Party are major players in the next Israeli government?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I hate to say it, but I think your belief is part of the problem. If Hamas was not launching missiles, then there would have been no attack by the Israeli military.

If the bogus state of Israel was never created Hamas wouldn't have to launch missles at people that shouldn't be there.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel is at fault for fighting them?

Murdering innocent people is now called "fighting terrorists"? I love the BS used by Israeli apologists to justify the actions of the most disgraceful terrorist organization out there, the IDF.

The VAST MAJORITY of those that support Israel want peace.

You might not know this but on CP people usually use green text for sarcastic posts, but since this is just an outright lie I guess that sarcasm doesn't really fit.

Does CP have a color for when a poster is just going to go a head and lie?

They are both equally at fault?

You are right here no way are they equally at fault. Israel deserves most if not all the blame.

[flylock shox]

Does anyone have an image of an open can of worms?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by moon

If the bogus state of Israel was never created Hamas wouldn't have to launch missles at people that shouldn't be there.


You are right here no way are they equally at fault. Israel deserves most if not all the blame.

Either this was meant to be green-texted or you are mentally challenged.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by moon

If the bogus state of Israel was never created Hamas wouldn't have to launch missles at people that shouldn't be there.



Murdering innocent people is now called "fighting terrorists"? I love the BS used by Israeli apologists to justify the actions of the most disgraceful terrorist organization out there, the IDF.



You might not know this but on CP people usually use green text for sarcastic posts, but since this is just an outright lie I guess that sarcasm doesn't really fit.

Does CP have a color for when a poster is just going to go a head and lie?




You are right here no way are they equally at fault. Israel deserves most if not all the blame.

Wow a thread about how muslim countries are trying to destroy civil liberties turns into a thread bashing Israel.... who would have thought.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Are you going to continue avoiding the question of Avigdor Lieberman forever? Is it because he doesn't fit into your idealized view of the 'good guys' and 'bad guys' in this conflict? It's not as black and white as you insist. Neither side can seriously claim any moral highground.

Mr. Lieberman's stated positions make it hard to call him a 'good guy'. Is that where you're having a problem?

What are the prospects for peace if Mr. Leiberman and his Party are major players in the next Israeli government?

Go back to the other thread and support your accusations, or get out of demanding answers. I would never say everything Israel does is good, but I can say most of what they are doing is because they are surrounded by hostile nations and assorted terrorist groups.

Why don't you go back to your venomous websites you like to read.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that Israel has a state while Palestine does not. So by it's very nature Palestine needs to take away at least a part of Israel to exist.

It's also not fair to characterize Israelis as totally innocent. There are a ton of religious fanatics buildings settlements right now.

True, but never would I say all Israelis are totally innocent. Far from it. However, the thread a few weeks back was Hamas firing rockets. Not how 'innocent' every Israeli is.

What do you mean Palestine does not have a state? It is called Israel. Don't get sucked in to the rhetoric. There is a country called Israel that represents many people, including Arabs. The Gaza was part of Egypt, the West Bank should be part of Jordan's responsibility (along with Israel), and the Golan Heights is partially Syria. The Northern border is with Lebanon. These countries all bear a responsibility to the current 'mess'.

There are religious fanatics in Israel. But let's get serious - for every 1 Jewish fanatic, there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Islamic fanatics. At least Jews can talk about them without fear of getting murdered.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by moon

If the bogus state of Israel was never created Hamas wouldn't have to launch missles at people that shouldn't be there.

Ladies and Gentleman, I think Moon unfortunately is proving the point that there is a link between much of the criticism of Israel and simple antisemitism. Of course there can be debate, but Moon represents several of the posters here who have one purpose - hate.

This will be fun though, let's pretend for a moment Israel never existed. There is a nation in Israel's place called Hamas. Girl's are not allowed to go to school, there is no freedom of religion, all political opposition is murdered, people are forced to prey, there is no farming or gardens, just dust, and there is the occasional bomb exploding from the neighboring countries of Hezbollah, Al Queda, and a few other nations. Human rights of course does not exist. But thank God Israel never existed!
An ocean away, there are more battles. Sharia Law is being forced in Canada, France, Britain and everywhere else.
After a year of Hamas' independence, Syria rolled through and took over the entire land, exterminated the population, and now the area is called Syria. Next year it will be called Iran.

Anyway, I hate to make light of the situation, but I do think that the region is fortunate to have Israel there, they are a beacon of light for those that want freedoms and rights. Those two things are what makes them despised by their neighbors.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Ladies and Gentleman, I think Moon unfortunately is proving the point that there is a link between much of the criticism of Israel and simple antisemitism. Of course there can be debate, but Moon represents several of the posters here who have one purpose - hate.

This will be fun though, let's pretend for a moment Israel never existed. There is a nation in Israel's place called Hamas. Girl's are not allowed to go to school, there is no freedom of religion, all political opposition is murdered, people are forced to prey, there is no farming or gardens, just dust, and there is the occasional bomb exploding from the neighboring countries of Hezbollah, Al Queda, and a few other nations. Human rights of course does not exist. But thank God Israel never existed!
An ocean away, there are more battles. Sharia Law is being forced in Canada, France, Britain and everywhere else.
After a year of Hamas' independence, Syria rolled through and took over the entire land, exterminated the population, and now the area is called Syria. Next year it will be called Iran.

Anyway, I hate to make light of the situation, but I do think that the region is fortunate to have Israel there, they are a beacon of light for those that want freedoms and rights. Those two things are what makes them despised by their neighbors.

Just to summarize...

1. Criticizing Israeli policy is racism
2. The Palestinian people are too stupid to grow food
3. Sharia Law is being forced on Canada
4. "They" hate Israel because of freedoms

That about cover it?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Ladies and Gentleman, I think Moon unfortunately is proving the point that there is a link between much of the criticism of Israel and simple antisemitism. Of course there can be debate, but Moon represents several of the posters here who have one purpose - hate.

Anti-semitic?? I never criticized Jews and I have as much disgust with any person, whether Jewish, Chrisitian, Muslim etc. that supports the Israeli government and their continued murdering of innocent people.

And what exactly did I say that was hateful?

Now not supporting Israel is considered hate?

This will be fun though, let's pretend for a moment Israel never existed. There is a nation in Israel's place called Hamas. Girl's are not allowed to go to school, there is no freedom of religion, all political opposition is murdered, people are forced to prey, there is no farming or gardens, just dust, and there is the occasional bomb exploding from the neighboring countries of Hezbollah, Al Queda, and a few other nations. Human rights of course does not exist. But thank God Israel never existed!
An ocean away, there are more battles. Sharia Law is being forced in Canada, France, Britain and everywhere else.
After a year of Hamas' independence, Syria rolled through and took over the entire land, exterminated the population, and now the area is called Syria. Next year it will be called Iran.

Why make up a fictional place that is full of stereotypes and falsehoods when Israel as it exists now is a much worse place than the horrible place you try to create.

Anyway, I hate to make light of the situation, but I do think that the region is fortunate to have Israel there, they are a beacon of light for those that want freedoms and rights. Those two things are what makes them despised by their neighbors.

Freedom and rights??

So long as you aren't Arab you might be lucky enough to have some rights and freedoms.

Israel is as far away from being a beacon of anything let alone freedom or rights. The whole world is worse off for having it there.

[flylock shox]

Yowzers.

What is it about Israeli-Palestinian conflict that manages to get people so heated? It's crazy. I think another cease-fire might be in order.

But, since this thread has been hopelessly derailed, and I'm about 7 beers deep and not nearly sleepy enough to go to bed, perhaps I'll weigh in.

I think it's important to separate criticism of Israel (i.e. the actions of the state) from criticism of Jews, Judaism, etc. It's far too easy to dismiss valid criticism as being "antisemitic" when it is, in fact, nothing of the kind. In addition, a lot of harsh criticism of Israeli policies with respect to the Palestinians has, in fact, come from Jewish commentators, some of whom have been branded with the label "self-hating Jews." Attempts to brand anyone who criticizes Israel as either "antisemitic" or, in the case of Jewish critics, "self-hating Jews" actually falls withing the OT of this thread: an attempt to curtail freedom of speech. It is a means of suppressing valid arguments by attaching undeserved stigma to the makers of the arguments.

The second point I'd like to make is in respect of how poor a medium the internet is for conducting such a debate. I think intentions are often misconstrued, and there is a tendency for people to expect significant points to be supported or documented by some e-source, which ultimately leads to ex-post-facto link-searching by those seeking to find internet sources to support the points they were hoping to make. I suspect this was the case for Longsuffering, who could have simply stated his (her?) opinions on Conservative government policies, but tried to provide a foundation for those opinions using internet links which (apparently) turned out to be something other than what was expected.

I think we'd all agree that the Israeli-Palestinian situation is less than optimal, that it would be great if both sides could live in peace without the sorrowful events that have characterized their relationship for so many years, and that the region in which they exist would benefit enormously from a compromise between both sides. There is blame to go around for the current state of affairs, and various observers would divide that blame in various ways. But debating over how to divide blame is about as useful as debating whether creating the state of Israel was a good idea in the first place: it just doesn't matter, the situation exists, and time would be better spent on how to resolve the conflict so both sides, regardless of which side one feels is "right," can move forward, progress, and improve the quality of life for their citizens. Neither side can "win." Either both will win, or both will lose. Their fates are tied together.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Just to summarize...

1. Criticizing Israeli policy is racism
2. The Palestinian people are too stupid to grow food
3. Sharia Law is being forced on Canada
4. "They" hate Israel because of freedoms

That about cover it?

My reponse:
1. It is fine to criticize Israel, yet if the criticism is all BS, then let's call a spade a spade. And if the criticism is straight out of the antisemitic pamphlets then yah, I call a spade a spade.
2. Interesting point you make, but I disagree. However, there is a major difference between Israelis and Palestinians living beyond the borders. While Israel plants gardens, builds bomb shelters and plants trees, the Palestinians are putting up posters of their martyrs and teaching children to hate.
3. Sharia law has been attempted to be incorporated into Canada. And it likely will be attempted again.
4. Yes, they do hate Israel (and the West) because of their freedoms. Poor national policy in nations like Saudi Arabia that had much of the population poor and the elite ultra rich had to direct hatred somewhere. Do you really think the other Arab nations care about the Palestinians? They have done NOTHING for them, only Israel has. The hate these nations were taught have spiraled out of control. It is racism pure and simple. Their TV, text books, radio, mosques, music, government all can promote the agenda of hate. Some do, some don't. If you think for a second Israeli text books teach kids to hate, you are wrong. Every Israeli is drafted, yet they are all drafted knowing that if they did not fight, they enemy would invade and KILL EVERYONE.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Yowzers.

The second point I'd like to make is in respect of how poor a medium the internet is for conducting such a debate. I think intentions are often misconstrued, and there is a tendency for people to expect significant points to be supported or documented by some e-source, which ultimately leads to ex-post-facto link-searching by those seeking to find internet sources to support the points they were hoping to make. I suspect this was the case for Longsuffering, who could have simply stated his (her?) opinions on Conservative government policies, but tried to provide a foundation for those opinions using internet links which (apparently) turned out to be something other than what was expected.

I don't buy it. This has been your most moderate post on the subject. Longsuffering lurks and attacks, and basically got busted. I suspect he is guilty like many of the others hunting down threads on Israel. And you wrote it off like it was all an accident??

And you pop out here to defend him? Defend the guy linking a racist website? You are silent on the reasons Israel is attacking the Gaza (unlimited rocket attacks) and decide to post to defend some guy...

Sheesh.