Update on Transit Cop - 13 Hours in jail for not having Canadian ID

[killer_carlson]

right, because there is nothing wrong with a transit cop calling in immigration over a minor violation.



Do you have any idea of the problems this causes for the foreign national? Do you know how few foreign nationals carry their passports and visas with them? There is a presumption that they have legal status by being in the country.

[hockeycop]

If the Transit Cops called EVERY time they stop a Foreign National on a C-Train or for some other crap, Immigration would be rather annoyed. Whenever a Peace Officer comes in contact with a foreign national, questioning status has to come to mind. Do you know how many people are illegally in this country?! Assuming they are here legally just because they're in the country is a bit silly.

This case took a bit of a turn for the worse. It looks like the TC thought a charge would be laid. That is why he would have called Immigration. FN convicted of a ciminal (1 indictable or 2 summary) offence = deportation... FN convicted of Failure to Produce Fare = Why the F are you calling?!

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by hockeycop

If the Transit Cops called EVERY time they stop a Foreign National on a C-Train or for some other crap, Immigration would be rather annoyed. Whenever a Peace Officer comes in contact with a foreign national, questioning status has to come to mind. Do you know how many people are illegally in this country?! Assuming they are here legally just because they're in the country is a bit silly.

So, given KC's point that foreign national's don't carry their passports of PR cards on them at all times and your point (bolded), how do they establish resident status without calling immigration?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So, given KC's point that foreign national's don't carry their passports of PR cards on them at all times and your point (bolded), how do they establish resident status without calling immigration?

My gf and all of her friends who are new to Canada always have their SIN card in their wallet; if not a copy of their work permit.

That is also assuming their don't have an Alberta driver's or learners permit.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by ken0042

My gf and all of her friends who are new to Canada always have their SIN card in their wallet; if not a copy of their work permit.

That is also assuming their don't have an Alberta driver's or learners permit.

SIN card would do it I suppose (digits are different for temporary visas than PRs) but I can understand someone not carrying their permit about with them. Both aren't photographic id however.

As for a licence, don't they have a set expiry date that would often outrun a temporary visa?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So, given KC's point that foreign national's don't carry their passports of PR cards on them at all times and your point (bolded), how do they establish resident status without calling immigration?

It can be established by questioning. If she didn't have her Passport on her or her work permit the officer could ask clarifying questions such as. When did you come to Canada? What port did you enter at? Did you talk to an officer? Where you stamped in? If you have a work permit, when is it Valid for? If she can answer all those questions with everything making sense than he probably could assume that she is in Canada legally. If she gives the officer a run around than he is going to want to make some phone calls.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bagor

SIN card would do it I suppose (digits are different for temporary visas than PRs) but I can understand someone not carrying their permit about with them. Both aren't photographic id however.

As for a licence, don't they have a set expiry date that would often outrun a temporary visa?

SIN cards can't tell you much about the status of a foreign national.

[ken0042]

Yeah, but my gf's license could only be given for a max of 2 years, and she ended up getting 17 months.

My point I was trying to make is that most people who are here legally have some method of showing that to a person of authority. Sure, the SIN doesn't show an expiry, and the DL could expire past the point the person's work visa expires. What I was trying to say is to me this also sounds like a case where if she had shown proper ID she might have been ticketed and sent on her way.

Edit- to JoS' post.... what I'm saying with a SIN is it does show that at some point that person did deal with immigration- so takes away the "person snuck across the border" line of thinking.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

SIN cards can't tell you much about the status of a foreign national.

Yes they can.

Temporary resident SIN cards begin with a 9 and they expire on the date of expiration of the Visa.

Permanent resident SIN cards are regular numbers and have no expiration date.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Yes they can.

Temporary resident SIN cards begin with a 9 and they expire on the date of expiration of the Visa.

Permanent resident SIN cards are regular numbers.

No kidding. That is all they tell you. So, like I said, they don't tell you much. They don't tell you if it is still valid, if they currently have valid temporary resident status, what employer they are authorized to work for, where they entered, how long they were authorized to enter for, if the person is authorized to work for multiple employers.

So like I said they tell you very little other than the fact the the person is most likely a foreign national.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

No kidding. That is all they tell you. So, like I said, they don't tell you much. They don't tell you if it is still valid

?

Yes it does.

If it begins with a 9 it tells you the person is on a temporary visa as well as telling you when the visa expires. If it's before the expiry date then it is valid, if not ... then it's not. The expiry date is printed on a temporary worker's SIN card.

If it doesn't begin with a 9 it tells you the person is either a PR or citizen so therefore it is valid.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bagor

?

Yes it does.

If it begins with a 9 it tells you the person is on a temporary visa as well as telling you when the visa expires. If it's before the expiry date then it is valid, if not ... then it's not. The expiry date is printed on a temporary worker's SIN card.

If it doesn't begin with a 9 it tells you the person is either a PR or citizen so therefore it is valid.

Sigh, I understand that. First of all, someone having a temporary SIN does not mean that they have a VISA nor does it tell if the status they currently have is expired even if the SIN has expired. SIN's are issued by HRSDC (Service Canada), Temporary Resident Status is either granted by CIC or CBSA.

Someone can have a valid work permit yet have an expired SIN number/card. Someone can have a valid SIN card but have a invalid work permit.

For example, someone could have been issued a 3 year work permit and then aquired a temporary SIN valid for the length of their work permit. Most work permits are Employer specific. The person gets laid off from his job, leaves the country, then comes back to Canada as a Visitor for a specific time period that is shorter than the original validity of his work permit. He stays longer than what he was authorized to stay for yet he has a valid SIN because of the original work permit. Thus subject provides a valid SIN yet he is in Canada illegally.

One of several examples that I can provide.

A valid SIN card is simply a small indicator that subject may have been granted temporary resident status and that it may still be valid, but it would only be considered a small indicator.

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So, given KC's point that foreign national's don't carry their passports of PR cards on them at all times and your point (bolded), how do they establish resident status without calling immigration?

Sometimes, cooperative people answer questions and the cop will believe them...

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Sigh, I understand that. First of all, someone having a temporary SIN does not mean that they have a VISA nor does it tell if the status they currently have is expired even if the SIN has expired. SIN's are issued by HRSDC (Service Canada), Temporary Resident Status is either granted by CIC or CBSA.

Someone can have a valid work permit yet have an expired SIN number/card. Someone can have a valid SIN card but have a invalid work permit.

For example, someone could have been issued a 3 year work permit and then aquired a temporary SIN valid for the length of their work permit. Most work permits are Employer specific. The person gets laid off from his job, leaves the country, then comes back to Canada as a Visitor for a specific time period that is shorter than the original validity of his work permit. He stays longer than what he was authorized to stay for yet he has a valid SIN because of the original work permit. Thus subject provides a valid SIN yet he is in Canada illegally.

One of several examples that I can provide.

A valid SIN card is simply a small indicator that subject may have been granted temporary resident status and that it may still be valid, but it would only be considered a small indicator.

No need for the sighs, I was simply responding to your assertion that they don't tell you much about the status of a foreign national. That they can tell you the status of the person's visa (temporary or permanent) is IMO more than not much. Investigate further if you so choose the ones beginning with 9, the others .... well they're permanent residents.

Your examples are more the exception than the norm.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No need for the sighs, I was simply responding to your assertion that they don't tell you much about the status of a foreign national. That they can tell you the status of the person's visa (temporary or permanent) is IMO more than not much. Investigate further if you so choose the ones beginning with 9, the others .... well they're permanent residents.

Your examples are more the exception than the norm.

Ok, so we agree that all a SIN card does is suggest that a person is either a foreign national or a permanent resident. Nothing more. Even then, many new permanent residents have temproary SIN numbers because they have yet switched their new SINs over to permanent SINs.

So in this case, had the individual presented a SIN card, all the officer would be able to conclude is that the subject is most likely a foreign national. Even then, SIN cards are one of the most fraudulently used documents in Canada and it does not have any bio data or picture on it. (other than the persons name)

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by Bagor

No need for the sighs, I was simply responding to your assertion that they don't tell you much about the status of a foreign national. That they can tell you the status of the person's visa (temporary or permanent) is IMO more than not much. Investigate further if you so choose the ones beginning with 9, the others .... well they're permanent residents.

Common example. Person comes in. Work permit granted (2 yr). Goes to get SIN card (2 yr). Works 5 days, and then quits because his boss is a meanie pants.

His work permit is no longer any good, but he still has a shiny new SIN card.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Your examples are more the exception than the norm.

This is true.

Another fun fact is that most people do not intentionaly crash their vehicles into other people... By your logic, this would mean that nobody does this, and should never be questioned.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ok, so we agree that all a SIN card does is suggest that a person is either a foreign national or a permanent resident. Nothing more. Even then, many new permanent residents have temproary SIN numbers because they have yet switched their new SINs over to permanent SINs.

Yes, agreed on that. I guess where we're disagreeing on is whether or not this is "significant" information.

As for the second part, I can't agree with that. it doesn't make sense to me why they would do that considering the disadvantage that would come with it, e.g. mortgages, not to mention Provinicial Health Insurance would only cover up to the date of the expiry on the temporary visa.

I'm not insinuating that SIN cards are by themselves a valid source of ID simply that there is information there on immigration status.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

So in this case, had the individual presented a SIN card, all the officer would be able to conclude is that the subject is most likely a foreign national. Even then, SIN cards are one of the most fraudulently used documents in Canada and it does not have any bio data or picture on it. (other than the persons name)

If it began with a 9 ....... Yes. If not then he still has no way of knowing whether she is a PR or citizen (but either way she is entitled to remain indefinitely in Canada).

I accept the part about fraud.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by hockeycop

Common example. Person comes in. Work permit granted (2 yr). Goes to get SIN card (2 yr). Works 5 days, and then quits because his boss is a meanie pants.

His work permit is no longer any good, but he still has a shiny new SIN card.

Common example? How common?

Anyways, how would said Person survive for 2 years and he can't apply for PR.

Originally Posted by hockeycop

This is true.

Another fun fact is that most people do not intentionaly crash their vehicles into other people... By your logic, this would mean that nobody does this, and should never be questioned.

Ermmm, No. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

By my logic intentionally caused car crashes are more the exception than the norm. I never ever said NOBODY ever does what Jolinar suggested.

Something being the exception rather than the norm does not mean it never happens. I don't recall suggesting that.

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Anyways, how would said Person survive for 2 years and he can't apply for PR.

They would likely work illegally. That would be my (and others) point. That is why the status HAS to be questioned.

The last estimate I saw was from 2003. There are 200000 illegal workers in Canada. Construction, Truck Driving, etc.

There are over 40000 people who have been ordered deported that Immigration has lost track of. They seem to have found a way to survive.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Ermmm, No. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Bagor

By my logic intentionally caused car crashes are more the exception than the norm. I never ever said NOBODY ever does what Jolinar suggested.

Something being the exception rather than the norm does not mean it never happens. I don't recall suggesting that.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was trying to create an outrageous example that somewhat parallels what you're saying.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by hockeycop

They would likely work illegally. That would be my (and others) point. That is why the status HAS to be questioned.

Again, you fail to grasp what I'm saying. I NEVER said that their status shouldn't be questioned simply what and what couldn't be extracted from a SIN card.

Originally Posted by hockeycop

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was trying to create an outrageous example that somewhat parallels what you're saying.

Not .... even ...... close to being a parallel to what I was saying. What exactly is so "outrageous" about being able to determine status by the information on a card?

Why don't you clarify exactly what it is in your mind I was saying. I NEVER said it doesn't happen and doesn't warrant further investigation. All I was mentioning was that by looking at a SIN card you can determine whether it is of a temporary or PR/citizen as an information tool.

Again ... clarify what exactly you feel I was saying.