Ann Coulter on teachers

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Putting the topic of lazy teachers aside, am I the only one who questions the efficiency of the teachers who are allegedly putting in these 12 hour days, evenings, weekends etc.? I would think that a hard working competent teacher should be able to get everything done in an 8-9 hour day, if not it seems like they are not working that efficiently. Granted there are distractions and commitments during the teaching day but there is also a lot of down time too. Other than the occasional overtime for marking papers etc. (most salaried jobs have unpaid overtime) I can't sympathize with the the 12 hour days/50-60 hours a week talk.

I agree completely, if it's even true. I can understand putting in extra time around report cards, but there is no way on God's green earth 60 hours is a typical week for a teacher. It's preposterous.

[lifer]

Originally Posted by tanguay'sstillgood

True, why would you entertain this notion? Which one of us has been a first year teacher and actually has real life knowledge of the subject? Which one of us routinely got to work at 8am, got home at 9pm, worked for a few more hours, then repeated the next day? Which one of us worked every Sunday after they kept that other schedule all week? I clearly see why you should dismiss this claim as unrealistic.

Lets check your math:

36 weeks (which was your number, but the actual number is about 39) x 60 hours (the low end of the scale you apparently 'entertained') = 2160 hours

50 weeks (assuming 2 weeks holidays for other jobs - probably low) x 40 hours = 2000 hours

Weird...my results don't match your well thought out and reasearched conclusion...

What job do you do that has you so bitter about all the luxuries teachers enjoy?

Clever_Iggy...I believe your claim of "Speaking out of ignorance" has kinda been proven now (as if it hadn't been before).

Certainly low. I started working downtown a year ago and have 5 weeks holidays. Most people I know that work in professional or downtown office type jobs get at least that much.
Lets cut DESS some slack though; based on reading his posts I have no doubt that very few of his teachers put in more than the bare minimum amount of work...

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Putting the topic of lazy teachers aside, am I the only one who questions the efficiency of the teachers who are allegedly putting in these 12 hour days, evenings, weekends etc.? I would think that a hard working competent teacher should be able to get everything done in an 8-9 hour day, if not it seems like they are not working that efficiently. Granted there are distractions and commitments during the teaching day but there is also a lot of down time too. Other than the occasional overtime for marking papers etc. (most salaried jobs have unpaid overtime) I can't sympathize with the the 12 hour days/50-60 hours a week talk.

Lets see...kids are at school for 6.5 hours. You have extra curricular activities for 2 hours. It isn't university...you don't only mark one essay and 3 tests per semester. You need to have the next day's worth of lessons ready for the kids. Tell me, how long do you think it takes to plan 5 or 6 hours worth of lessons every day? On top of that you have to create tests/quizzes/assignments, talk to parents, give kids extra help outside of class time, supervision duties while the kids aren't in class...

Actually, now that I look at it, there really isn't much going on throughout the day...there is tonnes of down time!!!

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by DESS

I agree completely, if it's even true. I can understand putting in extra time around report cards, but there is no way on God's green earth 60 hours is a typical week for a teacher. It's preposterous.

Again, based on your experience as a teacher, right?

[Antithesis]

Interesting, there's been a lot of people offering their opinions and experiences regarding teaching both from "the inside" and not.

My days typically start at 7:00 when I get to work to prepare, have meetings, whichever. Students get in at 9:00, and I teach from then until 1:00 when it's lunch time, with a 6 minute break each day at around 11:00, though I have to admit, this break is more for students to go and switch their books while I supervise kids that show up in my room right the minute they can anyway.

I have supervision at lunch two out of four possible days a week (Fridays there is no lunch period as the school day is shortened so we can have meetings on various matters). This ends up taking up 20 minutes out of a 40 minute lunch period. One other day a week I donate my entire lunch hour (OK - sorry - being melodramatic - all but 5 minutes of the lunch hour) to run a student group in my classroom that happens to almost always involve planning extracurricular activities. The other lunch period each week I donate to my students to do corrections on tests and quizzes (oops - sorry again - it works out to be only 35 of 40 minutes)

OK - now it's afternoon. Two more classes, from about 1:40 until 3:30. Now, each day, assuming no disasters, I do get one 54 minute period to prepare things. Being a Science teacher, this often involves setting up experiments, lab work, demonstrations, and so on. Marking rarely occurs during this time.

From 3:30-3:45, I spend my time in a hallway on the lower level of the school trying to get approximately 500 students to leave the building in a non-violent, hopefully somewhat organized manner. The hallway is probably 20 feet wide at most, with lockers on both sides.

I happen to have survived to my 4th year teaching. At this point, largely I know what I am doing on a daily basis though I continue to revise my lessons, tests and quizzes, find new assignments, to make sure I'm doing my best to teach these kids what they need to know. What I'm trying to say is - I don't have to start from scratch each day like so many of my colleagues do who are fresh out of University.

I am 'expected', though not paid (more on that later), to coach one extracurricular sport team each year. I get soccer. During soccer months, there is practice for 90 minutes two days a week, and games twice a week (unless we're on our bye week - then only one!) for about 2 months. Half of our games are away, so that often involves getting 16 young men to another school which might be anywhere from 1-5km away.

These days, since I've taken on the "Learning Leader" title, I've found most of my prep time at work is taken up with various administrative functions ... my marking has been happening at home but that's fine ... I can usually get big chunks of it done while the Flames are on.

All this being said, I largely knew what I was getting into when I signed up for the job and agreed to it, pros and cons. I love my job though that doesn't mean I think it's easy (it IS getting easier, however) ... the summers are nice, no doubt, as is getting all of my breaks each year at those times where people want them most. I have no problems with my pay and understand with all the benefits I get (health, dental, vacation time, job security, pension) my earning potential will be less than many. No biggie. I make enough money - Alberta is actually a pretty good place to be a teacher.

In addition, all those who are saying we have it so easy because we get paid to work so little are indirectly correct. I get paid only for the hours where I am teaching, so yes, I do get paid my salary for about 25 hours of work per week. I don't get paid for lunch ... even for my prep where I am doing work and everything I do is technically property of the CBE. I don't get paid to coach or supervise those two days a week or organize my club. A fine distinction, I suppose

Another fine distinction, I suppose, is that I don't get paid for the summer (technically), though I do get 12 paycheques a year.

One thing I've raised in these topics from time to time is the idea of the actual work done at work. Interesting to see that many of the "teachers suck" people posting during working hours which I do not often get to do. I've never had someone respond to this point - basically every minute I spend at work is working. I can't go to the bathroom whenever I feel like it. I can't take a quick 5 to speak to my buddy. Some days I barely even interact with another adult.

Clarkey - I know you meant no malice - but I am getting to the point where I am looking for every possible opportunity to improve efficiency and I just can't find them. There just is not as much downtime as you seem to think there is, though I don't fault you for the misconception.

Listen, I'm not saying there aren't bad teachers because there are, but I don't think there are as many as some on here would suggest.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Interesting, there's been a lot of people offering their opinions and experiences regarding teaching both from "the inside" and not.

My days typically start at 7:00 when I get to work to prepare, have meetings, whichever. Students get in at 9:00, and I teach from then until 1:00 when it's lunch time, with a 6 minute break each day at around 11:00, though I have to admit, this break is more for students to go and switch their books while I supervise kids that show up in my room right the minute they can anyway.

I have supervision at lunch two out of four possible days a week (Fridays there is no lunch period as the school day is shortened so we can have meetings on various matters). This ends up taking up 20 minutes out of a 40 minute lunch period. One other day a week I donate my entire lunch hour (OK - sorry - being melodramatic - all but 5 minutes of the lunch hour) to run a student group in my classroom that happens to almost always involve planning extracurricular activities. The other lunch period each week I donate to my students to do corrections on tests and quizzes (oops - sorry again - it works out to be only 35 of 40 minutes)

OK - now it's afternoon. Two more classes, from about 1:40 until 3:30. Now, each day, assuming no disasters, I do get one 54 minute period to prepare things. Being a Science teacher, this often involves setting up experiments, lab work, demonstrations, and so on. Marking rarely occurs during this time.

From 3:30-3:45, I spend my time in a hallway on the lower level of the school trying to get approximately 500 students to leave the building in a non-violent, hopefully somewhat organized manner. The hallway is probably 20 feet wide at most, with lockers on both sides.

I happen to have survived to my 4th year teaching. At this point, largely I know what I am doing on a daily basis though I continue to revise my lessons, tests and quizzes, find new assignments, to make sure I'm doing my best to teach these kids what they need to know. What I'm trying to say is - I don't have to start from scratch each day like so many of my colleagues do who are fresh out of University.

I am 'expected', though not paid (more on that later), to coach one extracurricular sport team each year. I get soccer. During soccer months, there is practice for 90 minutes two days a week, and games twice a week (unless we're on our bye week - then only one!) for about 2 months. Half of our games are away, so that often involves getting 16 young men to another school which might be anywhere from 1-5km away.

These days, since I've taken on the "Learning Leader" title, I've found most of my prep time at work is taken up with various administrative functions ... my marking has been happening at home but that's fine ... I can usually get big chunks of it done while the Flames are on.

All this being said, I largely knew what I was getting into when I signed up for the job and agreed to it, pros and cons. I love my job though that doesn't mean I think it's easy (it IS getting easier, however) ... the summers are nice, no doubt, as is getting all of my breaks each year at those times where people want them most. I have no problems with my pay and understand with all the benefits I get (health, dental, vacation time, job security, pension) my earning potential will be less than many. No biggie. I make enough money - Alberta is actually a pretty good place to be a teacher.

In addition, all those who are saying we have it so easy because we get paid to work so little are indirectly correct. I get paid only for the hours where I am teaching, so yes, I do get paid my salary for about 25 hours of work per week. I don't get paid for lunch ... even for my prep where I am doing work and everything I do is technically property of the CBE. I don't get paid to coach or supervise those two days a week or organize my club. A fine distinction, I suppose

Another fine distinction, I suppose, is that I don't get paid for the summer (technically), though I do get 12 paycheques a year.

One thing I've raised in these topics from time to time is the idea of the actual work done at work. Interesting to see that many of the "teachers suck" people posting during working hours which I do not often get to do. I've never had someone respond to this point - basically every minute I spend at work is working. I can't go to the bathroom whenever I feel like it. I can't take a quick 5 to speak to my buddy. Some days I barely even interact with another adult.

Clarkey - I know you meant no malice - but I am getting to the point where I am looking for every possible opportunity to improve efficiency and I just can't find them. There just is not as much downtime as you seem to think there is, though I don't fault you for the misconception.

Listen, I'm not saying there aren't bad teachers because there are, but I don't think there are as many as some on here would suggest.

Do you think other professionals get paid extra when they come in early and stay late? Do you think other professionals get paid when they work over their lunch hour? Do you think other professionals get paid when they take work home and work on weekends? Teachers aren't special in this regard.

And of course you get paid for the summer. Do you honestly think your salary reflects the nine months you work, divided out over 12 months? Seriously, I think you've been drinking the union kool-aid too long if that's the case. You are paid a full-time salary for a part-time job, plain and simple.

And you can't get on CP during the day? Poor you. How about we give you three months off a year as compensation...will that help? And how about we give you a pension that will last a life time...does that ease the sting a bit for you?

To be clear, I've never said a single bad thing about teachers in any of my posts. What I do think is bad is the value we get out of their contracts as their employers.

To anybody that owns a business: would you hire somebody that was entitled to three paid months off a year, as well as a pension you had to finance over somebody that only took four weeks off a year and had to worry about their own retirement? Every single business owner on planet earth would hire the guy that gave them the better value - that is the non-teacher.

Well taxpayers, you are the bosses, and you have an extremely crappy contract with teachers and you are being ripped off as a result. FYI.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by DESS

You are paid a full-time salary for a part-time job, plain and simple.

To be clear, I've never said a single bad thing about teachers in any of my posts.

Larf.

[kootenayguy9]

Originally Posted by DESS

And you can't get on CP during the day? Poor you. How about we give you three months off a year as compensation...will that help? And how about we give you a pension that will last a life time...does that ease the sting a bit for you?

To be clear, I've never said a single bad thing about teachers in any of my posts. What I do think is bad is the value we get out of their contracts as their employers.

To anybody that owns a business: would you hire somebody that was entitled to three paid months off a year, as well as a pension you had to finance over somebody that only took four weeks off a year and had to worry about their own retirement? Every single business owner on planet earth would hire the guy that gave them the better value - that is the non-teacher.

Well taxpayers, you are the bosses, and you have an extremely crappy contract with teachers and you are being ripped off as a result. FYI.

First of all I believe I am fortunate being a Social Studies/Journalism teacher in High School because I use the Off Topic Forum in CP during the school day to find out what people in Calgary are talking about. I tend to find many interesting current events on this forum to talk to my students about. It is also helpful to use in Journalism class as many posts on this forum I wouldn't consider news worthy and we have discussions around that.

Our pensions are a whole other issue. We have paid the highest percentage of our salary for many years in comparison to other teachers in other provinces. Right now about 10% of my gross salary is paid in to our pension fund and it looks like we possibly paying more in the future with this economic crisis hitting most pension plans.

[simonsays]

Originally Posted by DESS

You are paid a full-time salary for a part-time job, plain and simple.

Do you believe anything that you post or is all this just a mighty ruse? Your posts have taken me from chuckles to outrage and back and I just don't understand if you're serious or not. Generally I don't like the green text for sarcasm as it takes away from the humor, but I just don't know with you. I mean really? Really? I can't even begin.

[BuzzardsWife]

teachers should make six figures and given big thanks from parents at the end of the yea...most of them,not all of course..but they should be more appreciated in this country..and no im not a teacher

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by simonsays

Do you believe anything that you post or is all this just a mighty ruse? Your posts have taken me from chuckles to outrage and back and I just don't understand if you're serious or not. Generally I don't like the green text for sarcasm as it takes away from the humor, but I just don't know with you. I mean really? Really? I can't even begin.

If he is serious, then my guess is there is some sort of condition that is lacking medication.

Either that or he is just a



but I could be wrong.

[ma-skis.com]

I like the idea of privatizing teaching and having parents pay for the kids education, kind of like child care, a decent childcare center nowadays runs around $800-1000 a month per kid.... imagine if teachers got that for teaching... that's fair isn't it? That way people can't whine about their taxes going to lazy teachers, and can pay fair value for what they think they deserve... I wonder what tuition at a private school like strath or rundle is like...

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by ma-skis.com

I like the idea of privatizing teaching and having parents pay for the kids education, kind of like child care, a decent childcare center nowadays runs around $800-1000 a month per kid.... imagine if teachers got that for teaching... that's fair isn't it? That way people can't whine about their taxes going to lazy teachers, and can pay fair value for what they think they deserve... I wonder what tuition at a private school like strath or rundle is like...

Yes, because the person working at the day care makes $800-$1000 a month for every kid they look after.

[kermitology]

In three years as an engineer, I am making approximately what my mother, a PhD teaching English in the CBE took 35 years to make.

She just recently retired. I can't believe some of the statements being made here. I can personally attest to seeing my mother getting home at 5, making supper, and then marking until 9 when she went to bed.

Spring break, she was marking and doing report cards. Continual education, lesson planning, UNDERSTANDING your material so you can teach it to others.. Teachers get a raw deal. If I had to deal with 35 high-school aged kids for 6-8 hours a day I'd go mental.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Dess, you are the reason why this board needs skill points back.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by ma-skis.com

I like the idea of privatizing teaching and having parents pay for the kids education, kind of like child care, a decent childcare center nowadays runs around $800-1000 a month per kid.... imagine if teachers got that for teaching... that's fair isn't it? That way people can't whine about their taxes going to lazy teachers, and can pay fair value for what they think they deserve... I wonder what tuition at a private school like strath or rundle is like...

I like the idea of well-funded public schools with well-paid, well-trained teachers, so we don't become a third-world country in a generation.

The internets tell me that kids at Strathcona-Tweedsmuir start at 13 grand a year and it grows (slightly) as they get older. You also have to pony up 3500 bucks when the kid gets accepted. If you want to send a couple kids there next year, you are looking at 34 grand to start.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

One thing I've raised in these topics from time to time is the idea of the actual work done at work. Interesting to see that many of the "teachers suck" people posting during working hours which I do not often get to do. I've never had someone respond to this point - basically every minute I spend at work is working. I can't go to the bathroom whenever I feel like it. I can't take a quick 5 to speak to my buddy.

Ain't that the truth. Sometimes, Dess is crazy enough to be funny. Right now, it's just sad. Yeah, I've had some bad experiences with teachers, but for the most part, they sure as hell work harder then most managers, engineers and lawyers that I know.

[DESS]

Okay I'm going to take a step back because I know my tone is offensive, and I'm really not here to make enemies. I apologize for taking things too far, particularly to any teachers or loved ones of teachers I may have offended. This topic, for reasons I don't fully understand, is a sensitive one for people. That being said, I honestly think there is value in what I'm saying, but clearly not in the way I'm saying it.

First of all, teachers don't go into teaching to get rich so it's a little odd IMO for them to complain that their compensation isn't high. It would be interesting to see what type of people the vocation would attract if not for the unusually high amount of vacation time. That benefit is amazing...time is the most precious commodity any of us have, and teachers get more time in a twelve month period to do whatever they want than the overwhelming majority of non-teachers.

The comments in support of the hard work of teachers are focussed on the 9 months a year classes are in, but not on the 3 months a year where they are not working. I think it would be fair to the arguement if people would insert that caveat into any comment on how hard teachers work. There will never be the same type of financial compensation in the education sector there is in say engineering, but people know that going into teaching, so it's sort of an irrelevant point to make once they are already teaching. If you want to get rich, don't be a teacher.

Teachers are paid a very fair salary - I would argue high for the amount of work they have to do - but it certainly isn't low by any measure. Having to put 10% of your salary into a pension is not onerous. Your union has factored this into its negotiations with the government to ensure the 90% you live off of is more than adequate. Jobs without pensions don't have that 10% padding, and most of us save more than 10% towards our retirement, or should be at any rate.

Regardless, what teachers may not receive in financial compensation, they do receive in time off (this cannot be understated), pension, job security (wonder what's going to happen to all the high-paid engineers and geologists in the oil sector in the coming months?), etc.

They are rewarded greatly for what they do, and it is frustrating that they are never satisfied. As a taxpayer, it makes me want to compensate them in the exact same way this job would be compensated in the private sector. Look at responsibility, education required, and hours/year. I believe based on these measures teachers are paid an unreasonably high amount.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Rathji

If he is serious, then my guess is there is some sort of preexisting mental condition that is lacking medication.

Either that or he is just a



but I could be wrong.

Why would you think I am kidding or being a troll? You guys, the various governments that represent YOU over my entire 32 years of life have had to go toe-to-toe with teachers on an almost yearly basis because they demand completely unfair compensation for their job. Teachers are perfectly willing to deprive your kids of an education as they strike because they always want more. I'm having a tough time understanding how I can be the only one that gets annoyed at this. Our elected officials share my point of view whenever it's time to attempt to negotiate with teachers, but 95% of the people act like my point of view on this matter makes me mentally ill, a troll, or somehow unworthy to post on this board. See my post above where I apologize for my tone in past posts, but the content of what I am saying I stand behind 100%.

Just curious Dess, what do you do?

And for the record, both my parents were teachers growing up. My dad, well, he was a workaholic and he loved his job. There were weeks I only saw him at supper. He would roll in sometime around 5:30 (after leaving before 7am), make himself a rum and pepsi (had to be pepsi), sit down, eat dinner, then head downstairs and work on his lesson plans and marking. He might be done by 8 or 9 or so. He would do that 5 days a week. Summers? Well, of the 8 weeks he always stayed a week later and came in a week eariler. His 'vacation' was then only 6 weeks weeks. During that 6 weeks, I know he would spent some time working on future lesson plans. I would suggest that the vast majority of professional occupations do get a similar amount of time off.

My mom was in a similar boat although taught to younger kids and thus she didn't actually have to 'learn' new material each year.

Fact is Dess, your assumptions are waaay off. Do other professions put in extra time and not get paid? Sure. But you didn't insult them. Your 'facts', based solely on your experiences during your formative school years, show not only little understanding, but your abrasive style and inability to concede that you have no clue what you are talking about has offended a great number of people on this board.