Update on Transit Cop - 13 Hours in jail for not having Canadian ID

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Bagor

But here's the thing H&L, just from what I'm reading.

That she vowed "that she wouldn't be paying a dime to take the transit" suggests that she is anything but that.

Regular law abiding citizens don't skip fares.

I would like to meet one of these mythical creatures. I have heard about them but once they get off their high horse they seem to be just like the rest of us speeding, jaywalking, non-transit paying heathens.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Rahim

What else is new with Calgary. Its redneck inbred attitude is not going to change. I bought a transit ticket on Wednesday at the machines. Transit Cops got on and checked my ticket as if it was fake. He checked my ticket for a good 3-4 minutes and was staring me down. Finally he he gave it back to me while other non colored passengers had no problems. Its a ongoing issue and no one is going to do anything about it. Calgary will never be a world class city. Its just another dump like Dallas, Texas.

Wow. That is a pretty broad group of assertions. Labelling a cople of million people based on your interactions with just a few. Who would do that?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Rahim

What else is new with Calgary. Its redneck inbred attitude is not going to change. I bought a transit ticket on Wednesday at the machines. Transit Cops got on and checked my ticket as if it was fake. He checked my ticket for a good 3-4 minutes and was staring me down. Finally he he gave it back to me while other non colored passengers had no problems. Its a ongoing issue and no one is going to do anything about it. Calgary will never be a world class city. Its just another dump like Dallas, Texas.

Where ya from Rahim? I'd like to play the generalisation game too.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Rahim

What else is new with Calgary. Its redneck inbred attitude is not going to change. I bought a transit ticket on Wednesday at the machines. Transit Cops got on and checked my ticket as if it was fake. He checked my ticket for a good 3-4 minutes and was staring me down. Finally he he gave it back to me while other non colored passengers had no problems. Its a ongoing issue and no one is going to do anything about it. Calgary will never be a world class city. Its just another dump like Dallas, Texas.

So its fair to lump over a million people (well - about 7.5 million if you count the shot at Dallas in there too) together and paint them all with the same very broad brush because you don't like how long it took ONE transit cop to check your ticket. Interesting...

Edit: I once had to wait too long for my food while visiting a Chinese restaurant in Toronto. The clerk even looked at me while I was waiting for several minutes. The Asian patrons did not seem to have the same problem - they got their food before me. Therefore, everyone who lives east of Alberta and all Chinese people are racist scum.

See what I did there? I described a situation that may or may not have even happened, then attributed a very small inconvenience that may have been a complete coincidence to racial discrimination and then stereotyped a HUGE amount of people based on one person's alleged actions and motivations.... this is FUN!

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Bagor

But here's the thing H&L, just from what I'm reading.

That she vowed "that she wouldn't be paying a dime to take the transit" suggests that she is anything but that.

Regular law abiding citizens don't skip fares.

By law-abiding, I mean your average Joe. Society will always have it's freeriders, nobody is perfect. But I tend to make a differentiation from somebody who skips a fare, jaywalks, speeds through a light, parks in a no-parking zone, etc. from criminals that deserve to be thrown in jail for half a day.

Issue tickets and hefty fines by all means, but imprisonment is something I don't like happening to everyday folks.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

Edit: I once had to wait too long for my food while visiting a Chinese restaurant in Toronto. The clerk even looked at me while I was waiting for several minutes. The Asian patrons did not seem to have the same problem - they got their food before me. Therefore, everyone who lives east of Alberta and all Chinese people are racist scum.

Hey no need for green. That happens in Chinese restaurants all the time. It's almost like some waiters don't know what to do or mentally avoid non-asian customers. Many of them are immigrants and don't speak proper english. There is still preferential treatment of course if not explicit racism. And Chinese restaurants function on the strange to western (and my own tastes) principles of the waiters avoiding tables and customers unless you specifically gesture for one. That is percieved as rude by others (and myself as a Canadian raised person). I feel bad when eating in Chinese restaurants all the time when I notice these things. Maybe I'm just being falsly empathetic.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

This combined with the previous thread that indicated that a cop has up to 60 or 90 days to charge you with something (not serious, but traffic related), just adds to my overall distrust of police in general.

stop swallowing those condoms and you will have nothing to worry about

[FlamesKickAss]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

By law-abiding, I mean your average Joe. Society will always have it's freeriders, nobody is perfect. But I tend to make a differentiation from somebody who skips a fare, jaywalks, speeds through a light, parks in a no-parking zone, etc. from criminals that deserve to be thrown in jail for half a day.

Issue tickets and hefty fines by all means, but imprisonment is something I don't like happening to everyday folks.

If she doesnt pay the fines then she serves the time. The other thread you mentioned that she refused to pay for the ticket she got for not having her ticket.

If you can be arrested for not paying for someone else's dog's license then not paying your own fines you deserve it especially if you are giving attitude.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by FlamesKickAss

If she doesnt pay the fines then she serves the time. The other thread you mentioned that she refused to pay for the ticket she got for not having her ticket.

If you can be arrested for not paying for someone else's dog's license then not paying your own fines you deserve it especially if you are giving attitude.

My brother was dragged downtown when we were younger and spent a night in a holding cell for not paying his c-train ticket.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Ummm... in order to be 'accused' and charged, the police generally need some sort of reasonable and probable grounds to do so. Thus, as I stated, it is NOT legally possible to be charged with an offence if the cop/transit officer does not have to grounds to do so. It must stand an objective and subjective test. That being said, there are bad cops and there are poor decisions made. But those are very infrequent.

First, you're using accused and charged as if they are interchangeable, that's not the case. Second, it is certainly possible to be accused or charged without sufficient grounds to do so. Where do you think the thousands of civil suits against police departments for unlawful arrest and confinement come from?

I'll agree that bad cops and bad decisions are typically in the minority, but that doesn't mean that the minority hasn't reared it's head in this instance. The facts we have are one sided and limited, but from my personal experiences with transit officers I wouldn't dismiss this as a fabrication so quickly.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I have my suspicions that she could have been belligerent as well, it's not usually in her character but again, I don't know what somebody would do in that sort of a situation. All I know is that she's seemed really hurt and quiet these few days.

I'm not going to comment on this thread anymore as it's not my business and I don't want to pry into her affairs. I know she is contacting several different authorities here and even in the U.S. to deal with the situation. I just think that overall, it's a pretty crappy thing to be a regular law-abiding citizen who has never been in trouble before, a vistor to the country no less, and crossing the street only to end up in jail for 13 hours. A pretty traumatic experience. At least she wasn't tasered to death.


As for the criticisms against transit cops, I think that is merited and corroborated by some stories people have. In this case, nomatter where fault ultimately lies, it was probably shared if she was a bit angry and not completely cooperative. I'm told the transit cop wouldn't listen to her side of the story and was just berrating her for jaywalking like he lost his temper..the way the cop handled the situation was unfair and I feel uncalled for as she definetely was calling up to the office for somebody to bring her some more ID or someone to come down and confirm her identity when she asked for the dude's name and suddenly - presto! Arrested.

See the thing is, this exact same thing happened to me when I was an 18 year old white guy who had recently moved to AB. And the Transit Cop was a dick about it and was berating. I think they're often like that, and it's this woman's perception that's clouded, not an example of abiding racism in Calgary, or even that particular Transit Cop. I also thought the cop way overraected when I got my ticket for jaywalking, especially when I told him that I had just moved here from Ontario, and even in downtown Toronto, everybidy jaywalks all the time. I thought I might get a warning, but instead I got a ticket and a lectture. Like I said before though, the nice thing was that he spelled my name wrong, so I didn't pay it. Hopefuly caused him a nice paperwork headache and pointless court appearance.

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

By law-abiding, I mean your average Joe. Society will always have it's freeriders, nobody is perfect. But I tend to make a differentiation from somebody who skips a fare, jaywalks, speeds through a light, parks in a no-parking zone, etc. from criminals that deserve to be thrown in jail for half a day.

Issue tickets and hefty fines by all means, but imprisonment is something I don't like happening to everyday folks.

She didn't get thrown in jail for jaywalking, she got thrown in jail for obstruction (or so we figure). That is a criminal charge.

Originally Posted by valo403

First, you're using accused and charged as if they are interchangeable, that's not the case. Second, it is certainly possible to be accused or charged without sufficient grounds to do so. Where do you think the thousands of civil suits against police departments for unlawful arrest and confinement come from?

I'll agree that bad cops and bad decisions are typically in the minority, but that doesn't mean that the minority hasn't reared it's head in this instance. The facts we have are one sided and limited, but from my personal experiences with transit officers I wouldn't dismiss this as a fabrication so quickly.

Those words are interchangeable. If you are charged with an offense, you are an accused. If you are an accused, you have been charged with an offense. Or maybe I don't quite get what you mean.

As I said, it is POSSIBLE to be charged without sufficient grounds. The fact there are civil suits is not indicative or being wrongfully accused. In fact, the vast majority of appeals are rarely based on insufficient grounds to actually lay a charge but more so on other sections of the CCRF (Section 8 is a common one). There are a lot of checks and balances to be sure police and other peace officers did indeed have the grounds to lay a charge and for the most part, they are pretty effective.

[jolinar of malkshor]

If she didn't pay a previous ticket issued by a transit officer then it is quite possible that a warrant was issued for her arrest for this offence. It happens all the time. She could have been arrested on that warrant.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

If she didn't pay a previous ticket issued by a transit officer then it is quite possible that a warrant was issued for her arrest for this offence. It happens all the time. She could have been arrested on that warrant.

And if she works at a law firm she may even have been aware of that possibility/likelihood and resisted giving her name for that reason, causing the Transit Cop's radar to go off based on her guilty behaviour...

[GGG]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

The only way I could see someone thinking this was true is if they haven't travelled much in the US and Canada. If you have, I have no idea where you get this idea from.

Walk down the wrong street in the wrong neighbourhood in the US and you'll get yelled at and confronted because of your race.

I challenge you to find me a street in Canada where that will consistently happen.

I think we are just as racist, just against different groups. Natives are treated quite poorly in Canada. I think it is about 10 years ago now that the Saskatoon Police officers used to take them out to the old power plant in winter and let them walk back without shoes. 3 bodies were found and police were only ever convicted of doing it to one guy that survived.

Police Officers killing people because of there race is about as bad as gets. So I think while we may be more accepting of immigrants we definately are plenty racist.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think we are just as racist, just against different groups. Natives are treated quite poorly in Canada. I think it is about 10 years ago now that the Saskatoon Police officers used to take them out to the old power plant in winter and let them walk back without shoes. 3 bodies were found and police were only ever convicted of doing it to one guy that survived.

Police Officers killing people because of there race is about as bad as gets. So I think while we may be more accepting of immigrants we definately are plenty racist.

Yup, thats what they were doing, sheesh.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Yup, thats what they were doing, sheesh.

I am asuming the above comment is sarcastic and that you don't believe that is what police in saskatchewan were doing and are unfamiliar with the case.

So as a police officer if you decide to go out as an officer and pick up a drunk person who is passed out or causing a distrubance and instead of halling him into the drunk tank and logging all the paper work you decide to take him for a "star light" tour. You drop him off a few km's outside of the city without shoes in the winter and these people die and you only do it to one particular race.

What do you call that? Killing people as a result of there race in my opinion would be a start or if you perfer criminal negligence casuing deathing people because of their race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Stonechild the guy who died
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/stonechild/ Darrel night is the guy who surrvived and Police Officers were convicted of unlawful confinement.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by GGG

I am asuming the above comment is sarcastic and that you don't believe that is what police in saskatchewan were doing and are unfamiliar with the case.

So as a police officer if you decide to go out as an officer and pick up a drunk person who is passed out or causing a distrubance and instead of halling him into the drunk tank and logging all the paper work you decide to take him for a "star light" tour. You drop him off a few km's outside of the city without shoes in the winter and these people die and you only do it to one particular race.

What do you call that? Killing people as a result of there race in my opinion would be a start or if you perfer criminal negligence casuing deathing people because of their race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Stonechild the guy who died
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/stonechild/ Darrel night is the guy who surrvived and Police Officers were convicted of unlawful confinement.

Thanks for the links, but I am well aware of the cases involved. Do you think that these idiot officers only did it to Native people? I can tell you that this was a common practice about 20-30 years ago for many drunk holigans regardless of the colour of their skin. I agree that this shouldn't have been done and if someone died as a result of this they should be charged accordingly, however, this was not done because of race. It was the easier way to deal with drunk people, white, brown, black or purple. It was an idiot crime not a race crime.

And to add, I am quite sure it was not the police officers intentions that these people die, even though a reasonable person would think that maybe that would have been a consequence of dropping someone off in the middle of winter out in no where.

[hockeycop]

I still don't think you have all the information, because this doesn't make sense. Cops (even the Transit variety) don't go around picking fights over things like jaywalking. In your original post, you mentioned her attitude. Based on the description of events that you gave here (including her description of the hurt and stench of jail not leaving her), it would seem that she indeed is a bit of a drama queen. What state is she from? Did her US ID look like it was bought out of the back of a van? A lot of US ID's are garbage and can be easily faked and look like fakes. Perhaps this played a part.

I wasn't there, and I don't know any of the people involved. I have been in this situation a time or two, and I have a pretty good idea of what went down based on the limited information you put here. People who get all offended and switch on the drama any time a cop pulls them over, tend to get a rough ride. Not because the cop gets pissed off back at them, but because it makes it impossible for the cop to establish facts, warranting further investigation. Here is what happened (if my experience tells me anything):

1. Subject (Sub) jay walks on 7th ave, Transit Cop (TC) witnesses.
2. TC makes contact with the Sub, requests ID.
3. Sub starts with drama and attitude. Provides foreign ID. States she is working in Canada. Not in posession of Canadian Docs. TC starts thinking that Immigration might be interested.
4. TC reviews ID card. Questions authenticity. Asks if Sub can provide her Canadian Status Document. More drama ensues, accusations of racism begin.
5. TC determines that he may have been provided with a false ID from a foreign national who may not have status in Canada.
6. TC places Sub in Detention Status (this happens when he has Reasonable Grounds to SUSPECT that the Sub has committed an offence). Sub is read her Charter Rights.
7. Immigration is contacted to verify status. Immigration tells TC that since Sub is a foreign national, she has the right to have her government notified on her behalf (Vienna Convention). TC tells this to Sub.
8. Sub states she wants Counsel and her Govt. to be contacted) Sub is not at all cooperative (does not resist, but does not cooperate).
9. US govt. listens to Sub. She is screaming accusations, etc, etc... US govt representitive has little power to do anything but makes a fuss (that's what they're elected for).
10. After confirming Sub's ID and status in Canada, Immigration becomes disinterested unless a charge will be layed by the TC for a criminal code offence.
11. TC confers with more senior officers and possibly the Crown Prosecutor. Figures that charges are likely to end in acquital. Sub is released without charge. TC likely forgets to write jaywalking ticket, or cuts her a break since she's been through enough already.
12. Sub tells her story to a guy who puts it on Calgary Puck.
13. Internet Battle ensues.