Dad beheads son for Jesus.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

But why is it always god? Why don't they say the yogurt made me do it? I'm not taking one side or the other, I just find it odd that it almost always god telling them to kill. (or at least thats what they choose to say)

Could be that 'god' is a common trait that most people share. People HAVE said, my dog told me, etc., but since God is a possible delusion most share, it shows up far more than other delusions, say talking toasters.

From birth you are conditioned to believe in this invisible power, where any other non proven power would be shunned. You'd be crazy for suggesting anything else, unless you put it under the label 'god'. So it's a safe place for people to grow their delusions until something like this happens.



This is not to say that I truly believe that god is a delusion, but if you look at the argument from this side, it answers your question. It's like encouraging a schizophrenic.

[flamesfever]

I don't think schizophrenia has any relationship to religious or non-religious people. I would hazard a guess that atheists have the same percentage of people suffering from schizophrenia as believers.

From my exposure to people with schizophrenia, they usually refer to hearing voices, and act on their delusions through something other than religion.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I don't think schizophrenia has any relationship to religious or non-religious people. I would hazard a guess that atheists have the same percentage of people suffering from schizophrenia as believers.

No, that's not what I meant at all. I just meant it explains why schizophrenics often say 'god' told me, over other things. Because it's a safe unchallenged places for them to hide their delusions.

[koop]

Does anyone really believe he wouldn't have done this if he wasn't religious? There are plenty of ways to disprove religion, but these threads Cheese makes every week seem to imply that religion is the source of all evil.

The guy was crazy, and if it wasn't Jesus it would have been voices in his head or something else. There are many reasons for people to oppose religion, but opposing it because it creates murder isn't one of them IMO. Just because some people use it as an excuse to do horrible things, it doesn't mean they wouldn't do it without religion. Not to mention that murdering his son had nothing to do with the teachings of his religion, so I don't understand how anyone can really blame this on religion anyways.

The guy is justifying what he did by pointing to something that actually opposes what he did. It would be like someone trying to justify drinking a bottle of bleach because of a 'do not ingest' warning on the bottle.

[flamesfever]

I believe religion has been used quiet effectively to help people cope with mental illness, particularly those people suffering from addictions.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But but its easy to cast the blame on religion.

i blame stupidity, but... religion breeds stupidity and stupidity created religion

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by Dion

*Sigh* Athiests

I like to call myself a realist. I believe in reality, there are no gods, super heros, santa claus' fairies etc... just the harsh reality that we call life.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I believe religion has been used quiet effectively to help people cope with mental illness

using mental illness to combat mental illness lol

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Daradon

No, that's not what I meant at all. I just meant it explains why schizophrenics often say 'god' told me, over other things. Because it's a safe unchallenged places for them to hide their delusions.

But is this true or speculation? Just asking.

Is there research out there that suggests that God has been the voice in the head more than others?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

But is this true or speculation? Just asking.

Is there research out there that suggests that God has been the voice in the head more than others?

Oh I'll admit, it's just speculation, but it's a very logical argument.

Let me put it this way, if you are a schizophrenic that believes in 'god' you'll probably put that into your delusions somehow. If you are a schizophrenic that believes in aliens, you'll put that into your delusions somehow.

But it's probably safe to say, more people believe in god than aliens (or any other weird thing). So it stands to reason that more schizophrenics would blame 'god' more often than other things.

And I agree that this case is more about mental illness than religious dogma. This guy probably would have said SOMETHING told him to kill his son anyway.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I believe religion has been used quiet effectively to help people cope with mental illness, particularly those people suffering from addictions.

Tom Cruise would even take that a step further.

I don't think this case has anything to do with religion. He was a sick SOB who would have done this even if there was no religion.

But I wonder if religion doesn't attract people like this. Not because religion attracts crazies, but because, similar to what Daradon mentioned, people are feeling like they are having a supernatural event and religion has a lot of explanations for supernatural events.

Additionally, the psychiatric/psychology sciences are relatively new. Historically, people often turned to their religious community in times of need, but it monetary, medical of psychological. There are still a lot of people who turn to their church for help.

So I think there is often a correlation between religion and things like this, but it isn't that the church causes it, just that a lot of people with these issues end up in the church.

If I had to guess, I would say more people die in the hospital than other places. This isn't the fault of the hospital, just a consequence of the purpose of the hospital.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

using mental illness to combat mental illness lol

nm

[keenan87]

wow...just wow

[photon]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I believe religion has been used quiet effectively to help people cope with mental illness, particularly those people suffering from addictions.

Got any evidence to back up your claim?

I believe many people suffer more because they they put their hope in something that ultimately can't cope with real problems.

I think many people with problems just need people around them to support them to overcome their problems and religions provide this, but it's not something that's unique to religion.

On the other hand I've personally seen people struggle with problems because they thought religion was the answer.. week after week going to the alter to ask God for deliverance from real mental health issues, or going to a pastor for complex personal problems. And not only do they not get delivered, they feel embarrassed because the church sees them not getting better, they feel rejected and inferior because they see others supposedly getting help from God but they don't, they feel trapped because if they actually think of utilizing secular resources for their problem they're told that that shows they're not trusting God, no wonder their prayers aren't working, and that "worldly" people like psychologists are going to make their problem worse because of their humanistic godless ideas.

I think some churches can and do do a lot of good, but there's a dark side that goes unnoticed and overlooked.

[T@T]

^^^ winner

[Finny61]

hey photon, if an alcoholic has a problem, goes to an AA meeting to help himself, the result can go both ways that he has a relapse or is ultimately cured through due diligence and effort to conquer the problem, church can act the same way, it is a support system, for some it works for others it just doesn't.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

hey photon, if an alcoholic has a problem, goes to an AA meeting to help himself, the result can go both ways that he has a relapse or is ultimately cured through due diligence and effort to conquer the problem, church can act the same way, it is a support system, for some it works for others it just doesn't.

Isn't that what I just said?

You didn't respond to the replies to your post about animals killing... what point were you trying to make with that post, and how has learning that it happens in nature changed your viewpoint?

As an aside, AA is a religious organization aren't they, or at least they have a very religious slant to their program.

I think the reason AA and churches succeed in a small number of cases is the addict basically transfers their addiction from whatever to religion. So the addiction hasn't gone away, it's just been replaced with something more socially acceptable. Being addicted to religion can still be harmful though.

And the success rate of AA is suspiciously similar to the spontaneous remission rate of addicts, so the actual success rate of AA might be pretty much zero.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

What a load of errr stuff.

Its an elegant argument that totally ignores reality. And I love the smary tone.

If I so desired, I could go on the web, look for arguments that support the opposite and you'd write it off as religious propaganda.

I'm not talking about Karl Marx, I'm not talking about communism as a religion, Karl Marx designed communism as a Utopian economic and political system. It were men like Stalin, Mao and the other genocidal maniacs who believed that they were the gods in their own universe, and that there was no price to pay for reshaping the universe to their needs and goals.

At the best, they believed in god and he was a threat to their own plans, at worse, they believed that there was no true judgement for their actions besides history and results during their lifetime.



I understand that your passionate about your side of the argument, but your coming across as a bit of an ass with your tone.

You want to debate, debate, you want to throw out insults and act like an inferior superior, then I have no need for you.

A load of stuff? I expected better.

I was responding specifically to the fact you suggested "They believed that their goals were god." and ...At the worst there is no difference between atheist killers and radical religeous killers, its just their justifications that differ.

The rest has been rehashed here a thousand times.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't take anything seriously that represents itself as free thought that ends with

Religious indoctrination of children will, one day, be accepted as the crime against humanity that it is.

Anyone who believes in free through has to look at all angles and that includes the relevance of religion in peoples lives.

The people that wrote that blurb has no concept of what religion is about.

In other words its stuff.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

Isn't that what I just said?

You didn't respond to the replies to your post about animals killing... what point were you trying to make with that post,

I read somewhere years ago an article talking about the uniqueness of the human race and it was talking about how humans are set a part from wildlife in certain respects and there was a point made about murder. I can't remember what the article was but I wasn't firing off ignorant rants merely broadening the conversation.

Your looking for battles photon but you need to chill. My previous post was that religion can not be the source, it's only a scapegoat excuse for this guy to murder his son.