The Blue Jays Thread: 08/09 Off-Season Thread

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by cross16

that being said, i really think the Jays have run their course with Riccardi and need to blow things up. Too many guys pulling high payroll to have enough depth and pieces. i think they need to start putting just about everyone on the market and rebuild with some youth. Other wise they'll just be stuck in mediority forever.

I don't. The Jays had the best starting staff and relief staff in the league last year, it will drop off but I think its reasonable to think pitching will still be excellent.

Position players, we have a solid handful of offensive and defensive players (2B, 1B, CF, RF, LF) and nice depth. We're competitive, why blow things up?

The concept of blowing things up seems silly on its face. There's no market for most/all of our big budget players (Rolen, Wells, Overbay have too much $$ to get premium prospects), trading our promising young pitching would be counter productive and precedents like the Johan Santana trade says trading Halladay isn't worth it.

Trot the best team we can out there, hope for some breaks. I think a lot of teams would trade their whole roster for ours.

[Jason14h]

Trot the best team we can out there, hope for some breaks. I think a lot of teams would trade their whole roster for ours

Including Prospects? I don't think any teams would. (Well Maybe Baltimore)

We have no starting pitchers for this season. We lost 3 of the top 4 guys. The Bullpen will be so tired they won't have a hope, and we added no offensive pop to an already popless offense.

If this team can finish .500 I think it would be a miracle

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Including Prospects? I don't think any teams would. (Well Maybe Baltimore)

We have no starting pitchers for this season. We lost 3 of the top 4 guys. The Bullpen will be so tired they won't have a hope, and we added no offensive pop to an already popless offense.

If this team can finish .500 I think it would be a miracle

Halladay is a Cy Young favourite.
McGowan will not start the year, but I expect him to play most of it.
Litsch is a legitimate starter.
We had a prospect, a big lefty with a fastball come up at the end of the season, his name evades me at the moment. He looks like he should stick.
Edit: Purcey

Richmond was passable, Maroth has a remote chance, plus a number of camp-fodder that could strike gold.

Janssen could be back and could start, we have a number of potential young arms (Brett Cecil's stats were very similar to those of Ray's phenom David Price*). I think JP (and pitching coach Arnsberg) need to get some kind of benefit-of-the-doubt that one or two of these guys will pan out based on the dedication to drafting and the litany of terrific pitchers that have been developed recently.

And we're not talking about rebuilding a terrible staff, the Jays need to replace AJ and Marcum while potentially adding Janssen, Accardo, and a fully recovered Ryan on what was the best starting staff in the league AND the best bullpen in the league.

Edit: Another thing I'd like to add. Rolen on 3rd, Overbay on 1st, McDonald at SS, Hill at 2nd - that is a fantastic defensive infield. We don't need AJ punching out 10 players a game, we just need ground ball pitchers. Lind is kind of a train wreck in LF, but if we put Wells in LF, Rios in CF, and Snider's cannon in RF, that outfield is hardly lacking defense. Plus Barajas can control the running game better than Zaun could.

*http://taoofstieb.blogspot.com/ touched on this Price/Cecil comparison.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Trot the best team we can out there, hope for some breaks. I think a lot of teams would trade their whole roster for ours.

I can't think of many that would trade rosters.

The Jays, once again, have a roster that Jays fans seem to get excited about but when you look at it realistically it is just not very good.

I agree with someone (Blair?) on PTS (which is rare since they are usually huge Jays homers on that show) the Jays are a lot closer to 5th in the East than they are to 1st or even 3rd.

The problem the Jays have now is that they are significantly worse than Boston, TB and NYY. So not only do they need 1 but now they need 2 of those teams to choke while the Jays themselves play way over their heads just to make the play-offs.

The Jays had so many pitchers play over their heads last season and it still wasn't close to good enough to contend for the WC. What are the chances that the pitching staff overachieves again, especially with two of their top 4 starters gone this season?

They have a bad lien-up full of mediocre and old hitters who are likely to decline not improve.

I know Jays fans are very supportive of their team and great at finding positives during the losses but I just don't see how this team looks good in comparision with many others or how a mini-rebuild doesn't make sense considering the fact they have no chance at the play-offs this season.

[Gozer]

Maybe if I'm a little more unrealistic with my homer-ism...

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Halladay is a Cy Young favourite.
McGowan will not start the year, but I expect him to play most of it.
Litsch is a legitimate starter.
We had a prospect, a big lefty with a fastball come up at the end of the season, his name evades me at the moment. He looks like he should stick.
Edit: Purcey

Richmond was passable, Maroth has a remote chance, plus a number of camp-fodder that could strike gold.

Janssen could be back and could start, we have a number of potential young arms (Brett Cecil's stats were very similar to those of Ray's phenom David Price*). I think JP (and pitching coach Arnsberg) need to get some kind of benefit-of-the-doubt that one or two of these guys will pan out based on the dedication to drafting and the litany of terrific pitchers that have been developed recently.

And we're not talking about rebuilding a terrible staff, the Jays need to replace AJ and Marcum while potentially adding Janssen, Accardo, and a fully recovered Ryan on what was the best starting staff in the league AND the best bullpen in the league.

Edit: Another thing I'd like to add. Rolen on 3rd, Overbay on 1st, McDonald at SS, Hill at 2nd - that is a fantastic defensive infield. We don't need AJ punching out 10 players a game, we just need ground ball pitchers. Lind is kind of a train wreck in LF, but if we put Wells in LF, Rios in CF, and Snider's cannon in RF, that outfield is hardly lacking defense. Plus Barajas can control the running game better than Zaun could.

*http://taoofstieb.blogspot.com/ touched on this Price/Cecil comparison.

Your thinking of Ricky Romero. First round pick from a couple of years.

I don't think they have that competitive of a team. They still don't have enough power, no clear number 4 hitter, and very shallow depth in the Rotation. That and they have to play the Rays, Yankees, and Sox in that division. They only way Toronto is competitive is if they get a full healthy season out of everyone, get Snider to emerge as a 20 plus home run guy and get a young pitcher to come out of nowhere. Thats a big task.

[ShaolinFlame]

Originally Posted by moon

The Jays had so many pitchers play over their heads last season and it still wasn't close to good enough to contend for the WC. What are the chances that the pitching staff overachieves again, especially with two of their top 4 starters gone this season?

...

I know Jays fans are very supportive of their team and great at finding positives during the losses but I just don't see how this team looks good in comparision with many others or how a mini-rebuild doesn't make sense considering the fact they have no chance at the play-offs this season.

For the first part I quoted, it is important to note that a lot of the lineup last year put out the opposite of career years. Most of them had a very low OPS/OPS+ when compared to their career average. For some you could say they are getting old (Rolen), but I would expect a rebound year out of most (or at least closer to career averages). If the bats were even close to average they would have won a lot more games. It should also be noted that their winning percentage under Cito projected over an entire season puts them a lot closer to the playoffs. Whether or not Cito will continue to inspire these guys is another question.

Gozer did a good job of covering returning pitchers, so I'll leave that alone.

As for the mini rebuild, that should be one or two years down the road, after Rolen, Overbay, BJ, and possibly Wells() are gone. With the amount of money that they have dedicated to guys that are soon to be free agents (most with contracts that are pretty hard to trade for anything of significance), it makes sense to leave a total blowup for next year or the following year, and take a last stab at winning. Unless is of course there is a magical good market for those contracts hidden somewhere in the depths of the MLB.

I think the one thing this team really needs is some heart and grit. A guy who can bring those elements out of those around him. I know Doc has a ton of heart, but I think a guy like Varitek could really help this team gel. They need to play hard for each other, not themselves (as some seem to do - CoughRIOScough). Maybe then they wouldn't have the second worst team average with RISP.

[ShaolinFlame]

Three more Jays avoid arbitration today:

Jeremy Accardo, Jose Bautista and Jason Frasor joined their arbitration eligible teammate Brandon League today, all agreeing to one-year contracts for the coming season.

DJF

[Gozer]

From DJF, Cito:

expects 20-25 homers from Overbay, 25-30 from Rolen and even more from Alex Rios, who Cito said is going to be a superstar.

Which I find exciting. I don't think Cito is going to go out of his way to puff up Riccardi so I assume that has some baseball-related basis. Also mentioned is that Janssen is back and penciled in the starting rotation. If he gets back to form than the projected rotation seems to be coming together. Brett Cecil is also going to get a shot at winning a starting spot (no chance for the 'pen I presume) and it looks like Snider is expected to stay up.

Also, apparently Cito references himself, or those drunks don't know how "double-apostrophe-doohickeys" work.

[ShaolinFlame]

Yeah the Janssen news is good, and Cito seemed to have it together. Apparently JP got blasted last night at the STH QnA, but Godfried (SP) got off without any tough questions (As I'm sure you know Gozer).

It might just be the angry drunken editorial musings of DJF, but I am really beginning to get fed up with Rogers. Especially if they are making as much money as DJF claim. Sell the team to someone who cares for Gods sake. And if I see one more freaking commercial between at bats I am going to massacre the staff at my local rogers video location (who don't even carry Jays bobbleheads).

The more Jays games I watch, the more I become convinced with the arguement that all they really are is a marketing tool for Rogers communication. It makes me sick.

And the rescheduling of the STH meeting to the evening of the Obama inauguration, without telling the press until that morning, was an incredibly unclassy move.

Show some class Rogers!!!! I wish I could route for the Expos. Looks like I am going to spend a lot of time this summer at Nat Bailey ballpark, watching the second best baseball team in Canada (and the classiest). I am sure as hell not going to watch the Mariners. Maybe the Braves, so I can give my viewership to the Ted who cares.

DJF also made a good point about how free agents are not making crazy money this offseason (outside of a few). Good season to sign a FA.

I still think this team needs a gritty leader and Manny. Sign Manny and Grit!

[Gozer]

Yeah, they whine about Rogers, but to Rogres it truly is just an investment. That's almost universally true. Having ownership that actually cares (like the Flames) is an extremely rare thing.

It ticks me off more than the Fan960 seem to resent airing Jays games through the summer, as if Kerr needs another hour a day talking about the Flames in July.

[ShaolinFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

It ticks me off more than the Fan960 seem to resent airing Jays games through the summer, as if Kerr needs another hour a day talking about the Flames in July.

I remember when I lived in Calgary a few summers ago and we would listen to Jays games on the radio while golfing. Do they not play any anymore?

We don't have a FAN in Vancouver and I don't think the Team1040 has the rights, so I don't think I have any Jays radio. It doesn't help that Pratt and Taylor like to talk about Entourage and Air Conditioning more than sports, and the other guy (whose names eludes me) just talks Lions all the time. Maybe it's time I stream some Fan590 off of those internets.

I do like to listen to Canadians games on the radio when they are on though. I have been debating seasons tickets for a while, and I think if I stick in town this summer I just might. I even get my name printed on a seat! I just hope my enemy Ron 'Jurgen-######' Jurgenheimer is not on the roster. I hate that guy.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by ShaolinFlame

I remember when I lived in Calgary a few summers ago and we would listen to Jays games on the radio while golfing. Do they not play any anymore?

They play them, but I always get the feeling that the Calgary/960 guys are half-apologizing when they sign off. Maybe I'm just being silly.

[ShaolinFlame]

Given Laid Off To Pay For Ducey's Rim Job

Anybody read this (Gozer)? Nice to know that the guys at DJF can make me laugh even on a bad day.

In fact, the only constant of Ricciardi's tenure in Toronto has been his preference for somewhat useless white guys filling out the roster, so at least his racist track record is still in tact.

Priceless.

[Gozer]

That was golden.

On a different note, I am actually starting to get excited that we could land a Dunn or Manny. I never considered it realistic before, but the markt just isn't there for those guys and Rogers is in a position to make a splash.

[ShaolinFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

That was golden.

On a different note, I am actually starting to get excited that we could land a Dunn or Manny. I never considered it realistic before, but the markt just isn't there for those guys and Rogers is in a position to make a splash.

If only Adam Dunn liked baseball, and Scott Boras was freezing in hell.

It would be amazing, and it is the best time to do it, but I just can't see it ever ever happening. Unless JP gets fired this week or something. I mainly just wanted an excuse to post an out of context 'Rim Job' quote though...

[Gozer]

I was just happy that this got pushed off the front page.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Gozer

That was golden.

On a different note, I am actually starting to get excited that we could land a Dunn or Manny. I never considered it realistic before, but the markt just isn't there for those guys and Rogers is in a position to make a splash.

Dunn?? Not with J.P there it won't. Not unless they sign him for $15 mill.

[ShaolinFlame]

Jays signs 40 year Old Japanese lefty Ken Takahashi, and make minor league offer to Kevin Millar.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by ShaolinFlame

Jays signs 40 year Old Japanese lefty Ken Takahashi, and make minor league offer to Kevin Millar.

Seems odd, but I suppose a wily 40 year old that teams won't have a scouting report on could come in handy.

Kevin Millar? Not exactly the free agent splash I had been hoping for.