Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

[Azure]

Reporting from Washington -- The CIA's secret prisons are being shuttered. Harsh interrogation techniques are off-limits. And Guantanamo Bay will eventually go back to being a wind-swept naval base on the southeastern corner of Cuba.

But even while dismantling these programs, President Obama left intact an equally controversial counter-terrorism tool.




Under executive orders issued by Obama recently, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the United States.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-re...176,full.story

[rubecube]

Garbage. His first big mistake, IMO.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Azure

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-re...176,full.story

I heard a discussion about this on the radio this morning. According to what I heard, the article is not exactly accurate. Apparently some media and CIA pundits having studied the text of the Executive Orders believe that the language is vague or unspecific enough to allow for rendition and even torture (by third parties). I could be mistaken but I don't believe it is specifically provided for in the orders.

It seems as though right wing pundits and some of the more vocal supporters of the CIA feel that Obama left the language in the orders vague on purpose to give the CIA some wiggle room, while others feel that it is a matter of the CIA finding what it hopes to find (permission to continue with renditions) - wishful thinking basically.

I think we'll hear more about this.

[peter12]

Probably the most anti-liberty of all the counter-terrorist tools at his disposal.

That said, the CIA does need some wiggle room, even in the case of Guantanamo, there is no doubt that some very dangerous men are in resident.

[mykalberta]

The CIA operations ouside the borders of the US.

It does not have to adhere to the US Constitution or US laws.

+1 on Mr Obama for allowing it to continue in its mandate - to protect American interest outside the borders of the US.
-1 on the rumored Commerce Secratary appoinrment of Rep Sen from NH

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The CIA operations ouside the borders of the US.

It does not have to adhere to the US Constitution or US laws.

+1 on Mr Obama for allowing it to continue in its mandate - to protect American interest outside the borders of the US.
-1 on the rumored Commerce Secratary appoinrment of Rep Sen from NH

Where did you get that it was just for operations outside the US border? The rendition program has been used on both US citizens within the borders (or returning) to non citizens outside the borders.

Not that they'd have a right to detain other citizens in their own countries anyway without consent from those countries.

Very disappointing.

[Azure]

The CIA isn't allowed to operate within US borders, so I have no idea why you're saying they used the rendition program on US citizens, IN the US.

Unless you're talking about a different agency.

The article is from the LA Times, which isn't a right-wing pundit....but longsuffering is right. There is more to this than what the article implies.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Azure

The CIA isn't allowed to operate within US borders, so I have no idea why you're saying they used the rendition program on US citizens, IN the US.

Yet they wiretap in the US? I'd call that operating.

If they're not the actual guys who remove the people from the country, they work very closely with the agency that does, be it NSA or Homeland or whomever.

If what you are saying is true, they definitely violate the spirit of the law if not the rule of it.

It's moot anyway because somehow people DO disappear and end up in the CIA rendition program.

[Daradon]

As a follow up to my argument...

'In its first 25 years, the Central Intelligence Agency violated its charter by plotting assassinations, funding behavioral and drug studies that included "unwitting participants," opening U.S. mail, creating dossiers on nearly 10,000 American dissidents, wiretapping journalists to root out their sources, and interrogating a Soviet defector against his will for two years, according to a summary of a decades-old CIA report on the agency's activities released Thursday by the National Security Archive, an open government group.'

They may not SAY they operate on U.S. soil, or it may be against their charter, but they clearly do.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...eep-secre.html

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Yet they wiretap in the US? I'd call that operating.

If they're not the actual guys who remove the people from the country, they work very closely with the agency that does, be it NSA or Homeland or whomever.

If what you are saying is true, they definitely violate the spirit of the law if not the rule of it.

Well, officially they're not allowed too.

Unofficially, well stuff happens that we'll probably never know.

Thats the nature of the spy business.

It's moot anyway because somehow people DO disappear and end up in the CIA rendition program.

US citizens? Got any proof of that?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Daradon

As a follow up to my argument...

'In its first 25 years, the Central Intelligence Agency violated its charter by plotting assassinations, funding behavioral and drug studies that included "unwitting participants," opening U.S. mail, creating dossiers on nearly 10,000 American dissidents, wiretapping journalists to root out their sources, and interrogating a Soviet defector against his will for two years, according to a summary of a decades-old CIA report on the agency's activities released Thursday by the National Security Archive, an open government group.'

They may not SAY they operate on U.S. soil, or it may be against their charter, but they clearly do.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...eep-secre.html

Well, apparently it is in their charter that they're not allowed to operate on US soil.

Doesn't say anything about a rendition program on American soil being used against American citizens.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Azure

US citizens? Got any proof of that?

Fair enough, this is what I've been able to find so far. It would seem to suggest it hasn't happened technically.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...900835_pf.html


A "U.S. person" (citizen or legal resident) has constitutional protections against being removed from the country through rendition, and there have been no incidents to suggest the contrary. In fairness, though, the ghastly case of Maher Arar -- a Syrian-born Canadian citizen who convincingly says he was detained at New York's JFK Airport, handed off to Syria and tortured -- is way too close for comfort.

Again, more breaking the spirit of the law if not the actual rule.

And they have violated their charter on MANY other issues as already pointed out, and they do 'operate' in the States in other capacities. It's very possible they have violated this one too.

Again, the fact that they are other people's citizens and not their own doesn't really make it any better. In a lot of ways, it makes it worse.

[ikaris]

This whole discussion about whether this is occuring against US citizens is irrelavent. The practice of rendition is against the traditions and beliefs of all civilized and democratic countries worldwide.

Think about it; let's send someone to another country to get tortured because we can't directly do the torturing ourselves. Absolutely pathetic.

If America still continues to practice this eggregious act, they are fighting on the same level of the terrorists they claim to be above.

[Red]

Originally Posted by ikaris

This whole discussion about whether this is occuring against US citizens is irrelavent. The practice of rendition is against the traditions and beliefs of all civilized and democratic countries worldwide.

Think about it; let's send someone to another country to get tortured because we can't directly do the torturing ourselves. Absolutely pathetic.

If America still continues to practice this eggregious act, they are fighting on the same level of the terrorists they claim to be above.

And they are doing just that. Just google cia renditions to europe and you will find many claims/investigations supporting that.

Bush himself aknowledged that as well so they are not even denying it.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Red

And they are doing just that. Just google cia renditions to europe and you will find many claims/investigations supporting that.

Bush himself aknowledged that as well so they are not even denying it.

Oh I know, and it's terrible. That's why I'm disappointed Obama hasn't gotten rid of the practice.

I just got sidetracked on the US citizen thing for a moment, because of the mistake I made, though I did say right from the beginning it wasn't right for it to happen to other citizens either and I didn't agree with it.

[Azure]

Can I do the 'told you so' shtick right now? Or should I wait a couple months?



But, it is nice to see people stick with their position regardless. A few other people on different forums have completely flip-flopped their stance on rendition BECAUSE of what Obama has done.

[Azure]

"Under limited circumstances, there is a legitimate place" for renditions, said Tom Malinowski, the Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. "What I heard loud and clear from the president's order was that they want to design a system that doesn't result in people being sent to foreign dungeons to be tortured -- but that designing that system is going to take some time."

From the article.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Azure

From the article.

Ya I read that too, but it just seems disengenious. The whole point of extraordinary rendition is to put the prisoner in a place where things can be done that would normally be illegal under the system of law that is currently in place.

If they weren't going to torture these prisoners, then why don't they just interrogate them in the good ol' U.S. of A.

[T@T]

Whats the next destination for Harold & Kumar?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Azure

The CIA isn't allowed to operate within US borders,

Not sure what you mean by this? because they primarily don't sniff around there own backyard doesn't mean they don't, The SAD officers are part of the CIA and they most certainly work within the US border.