Religions : Legitimate vs otherwise

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Pretty much what Bush pulled off and this is with an arguably wealthy and educated society.

So the con still works though I don't think most major religions began this way, just that the cheese sandwich, brought up by another poster, has degenerated into dog poo.

Actually the most religious states are the lowest in Education standards, scores, IQ, etc..

One of the key arguments made about Religiosity in the US compared to two of the most irreligious nations in Europe (Sweden/Denmark); the point is made by the Author of 'Society without God, what the least religious nations can teach us' is that a healthy, educated population tends away from dogmatic religion.

The point being that arguments just for say higher IQ leads to agnostism/atheism isn't alone solid by the evidence showing such data. But that in the US Religion is capitalism, in a country where the poorer and less educated have no healthcare or insufficient, less chance to earn wealth, etc.. So those people are easier to draw into more fervent religion, hopeless people cling more to dogma than healthy, educated people with hope.

There's a lot more to it than that, the US has the black minority which suffered so much but had their religion and religious community as a major part of their identity in their struggle to earn equality and freedoms.

But there is correlations for sure, the complexity isn't too great but there are differing factors in the US compared to the rest of the western world.

A good quote from the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...d_intelligence

In 2008, controversial intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. [6] "I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor. [7]

[Finny61]

Well I have absolutely no interest in debating so I'll throw a question to generate talk into a different direction. Regardless of whether you believe in an organized religion or not, where do you think the world would be today without it? My 2 pennies sits on a world a hell of a lot more depressing then today's.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Well I have absolutely no interest in debating so I'll throw a question to generate talk into a different direction. Regardless of whether you believe in an organized religion or not, where do you think the world would be today without it? My 2 pennies sits on a world a hell of a lot more depressing then today's.

Why would you say that?
Id suggest that if the Catholics and their ilk had not murdered or muzzled the vast majority of free thinkers we'd be far better off today. When you forcefully close peoples minds; society moves backwards, not forwards.

[Finny61]

why would you say THAT? It's called opinions, I have mine and you have yours.

[RougeUnderoos]

Science would be further ahead (and that means we'd all be better off) if we had fewer superstitions slowing things down. I'm not going to debate it though. It's just true.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Why would you say that?
Id suggest that if the Catholics and their ilk had not murdered or muzzled the vast majority of free thinkers we'd be far better off today. When you forcefully close peoples minds; society moves backwards, not forwards.

Well the glory days of Catholic Christianity are referred to as the dark ages, so you have a pretty good argument but on the other hand if we didn't have printing presses publishing their translations of the Bible, we wouldn't have all these ignorant literalists propounding their interpretation of god which give so much fodder to you atheists.

So in my mind except for god, nothing is inherently good or bad, only how we use it.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

why would you say THAT? It's called opinions, I have mine and you have yours.

why (hw, w)adv. For what purpose, reason, or cause; with what intention, justification, or motive: Why is the door shut? Why do birds sing?

Calm down, Cheese asked you why you had your opinion. You stated your opinion but you didn't say why you had that opinion, so he asked you why.

So, why?

Personally I think society would look pretty much like it does now.. if religion didn't come about, the positives and negatives of it would have probably come around in different ways, different kinds of social groupings, different kinds of memes, etc.

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Science would be further ahead (and that means we'd all be better off) if we had fewer superstitions slowing things down. I'm not going to debate it though. It's just true.

Well assuming that something worse than religion didn't fill the void.. maybe if religion hadn't have existed the alternative wouldn't have been a scientific method right away, maybe some other kind of thinking would have rooted and taken 10,000 years to move through!

It can always be worse.

[ResAlien]

Without modern organised religion we'd still have the same basics imo. I suppose I could find a link, but I don't think anyone will refute that since recorded time, humans have always had some kind of deity(s) to worship. It seems to me humans are hard wired to believe in something greater. Maybe hard wired is the wrong word, but I think you get what I mean. It's nothing if not social pragmatism. If there is nothing greater than us, what real incentive is there for morality? I've said before I think people are inherently selfish, but a communal belief in a greater power, that can both punish bad deeds (as deemed by that society) and reward good deeds is necessary to keep any semblance of civilisation working.

Anything with a decent sized brain and capacity for thought understands reward and punishment rather quickly. Humans just happened to take it to a level that attempts to "not rock the boat".

I guess what I'm trying to say is that hypothesizing about no religion seems futile to me, as no matter what people will always have some kind of it.

[Antithesis]

I guess my point of view on this might not be conducive to discussion, but I could sum it up as, I don't know if I have any right to tell anyone else if their religion is legitimate or not. When you get right down to it, if it's legitimate to them, doesn't that legitimize it?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

If there is nothing greater than us, what real incentive is there for morality?

It has been pointed out many times in these threads that we don't need god to be good. Our morals come from the natural world, not the super-natural.

My oft-cited quote:

Sam Harris in The End of Faith:

The pervasive idea that religion is somehow the source of our deepest ethical intuitions is absurd. We no more get our sense that cruelty is wrong from the pages of the Bible than we get our sense that two plus two equals four from the pages of a textbook on mathematics. Anyone who does not harbor some rudiementary sense that cruelty is wrong is unlikely to learn that it is by reading - and, indeed most scripture offers rather equivocal testimony to this fact in many cases. Our ethical intuitions must have their precursors in the natural world . . . concern for others was not the invention of any prophet. [Harris, p. 172]

[photon]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I guess my point of view on this might not be conducive to discussion, but I could sum it up as, I don't know if I have any right to tell anyone else if their religion is legitimate or not. When you get right down to it, if it's legitimate to them, doesn't that legitimize it?

I think that's a good general attitude for a person, but if religions have any kind of special status legally then the government has to have some criteria to decide.

Which I don't think we've really discussed much in a thread supposedly about that lol.

[Antithesis]

That's true, so perhaps religions shouldn't have those special statuses ... though I am writing purely off-the-cuff.

I suppose at that point the charitable work many churches do would be brought up, however.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

That's true, so perhaps religions shouldn't have those special statuses ... though I am writing purely off-the-cuff.

I suppose at that point the charitable work many churches do would be brought up, however.

I think this is the best plan.. many churches seem to operate like a business and roll in the big bucks, why should they not be taxed?

If they want to do charitable work tax free, roll up a charity just like a non-religious group would have to.

There's already a system setup to make sure the charity isn't self serving or whatever, so this solves the problem of buddy setting up a church so he can get an extra holiday and tax free nachos.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by guzzy

I see lot of people bashing scientology. I have done much research on this "religion" and I understand where the negative comments come from.

Let's look back and discuss why sientology is any different from Christianity or any other religion. Christianity and many other religions are just different interpretations of the bible. Some idealist came up with an idea on how to control people and promoted it(the bible).

IMO, scientology has as much credibility as christianity or any other religion. Some crazy, broke, power hungry individual created it to control the minds of masses. Organized religion is only a form of mind control.

I am not a fan of organized religion but I do believe that some people absolutely need it. I have seen religion pick people up when they have no where to turn and have turned their lives around. For these people it is an amazing thing. I just have trouble supporting anything that promotes it's own beliefs in the name of a larger figure when really it is a cash grab and mind control

Good post.

Someday in the far distant future someone will create a book of religion ripping off L.Ron Hubbard's Dianetics the same way the Bible has ripped off what the Sumerians in Babylon wrote on tablets over 5500 years ago. Yes that's right... 3500 odd years before christ. just about every event in the bible is written on these tablets yet the catholic church refuse to believe that they are being deciphered properly...hmmm wonder why?

The day people start believing in "people" the day the world will be a safer and better place...until then, unnecessary worldwide death and gloom.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by photon

I think that's a good general attitude for a person, but if religions have any kind of special status legally then the government has to have some criteria to decide.

Which I don't think we've really discussed much in a thread supposedly about that lol.

I'm all for freedom of religion but like anything they have to obey the law, like no sacrificing virgins. Heck I'd even outlaw selling holy water and other scams but we should have freedom of choice even if we lose the odd youth to some cult.

[photon]

Lol, selling holy water and religious implements would have to adhere to the same proof of claims standards that everything else does. Or have "for entertainment use only" on it

[Daradon]

^^^ Haha, or they could come up with a law for 'spiritual merchandise' that excludes the need for proof for stuff like that.

Besides, didn't someone on this site just find stirring wands a little while ago that made water healthier and wetter? I'm pretty sure that if those passed the claims standards, holy water would do just fine.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

When you get right down to it, if it's legitimate to them, doesn't that legitimize it?

No.

[Flames_Gimp]

the overall IQ of the human race would improve dramatically if all religion was abolished