I find your logic incredible. One side kills their own people, wraps bombs around their own children, believe in some warped afterlife, are filled with hate, randomly launch missiles into towns and you are suspicious of Israel's activities since they don't want the media in the war zone? I can't invent this stuff, you wrote it. Did I miss something?
Wow... and there it is.
You know not to derail this into a religious pissing match but comments like that are totally not necessary to your argument. Like the pink elephant trying to hide inside the paragraph, as soon as I read that line I stopped reading.
If their incompetence is taking out UN forklift drivers despite been given their co-ordinates then why shouldn't I believe civilians are being killed through irresponsible/reckless/careless actions.
Note, I am not saying deliberate before you label me as a Hamas sympathiser or anti-semetic as you have done with others.
Interesting. Amazing, the Israeli military is using assorted heavy weapons. No wonder people are dying, right or wrong. That is what happens when humans mess with weapons. People make mistakes and wacky soldiers might even go nuts and shoot anything that moves. This happens in any military. You might call it incompetence, and I often would agree with you. How many forklift drivers were killed? How many weapons are fired in one of the most populated areas in the world (apparently)? The ONLY reason Israeli soldiers have entered the Gaza strip is to PREVENT civilian casualties. Yet you find it suspicious that they would prevent the media from a war zone, or at least from whatever source claimed they were preventing media. That issue did not even make it on my radar, I was too busy thinking of how awful it is for Hamas to hide among schools when firing their missiles.
I know you didn't say deliberate, but I will call a spade a spade. If someone is on the side of Hamas, then they support a terrorist organization whose main goal is to kill Jews everywhere in the world. So if that is not sympathizing or anti-semetic, than what is?
And don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the debate, including your points. I just don't hold back when someone is clearly siding with Hamas (which I don't think you have done - I hope you see that).
Israel is the "good guy" here, right? They have democracy, they are just defending themselves, they aren't doing anything wrong bla bla bla.
So, why ban journalists? What do they have to hide? Maybe nothing. Maybe something.
I don't buy this "they don't want them to get hurt" business either. They are firing missiles into densely packed refugee camps so it comes across as slightly disingenuous to play the "fear of casualties" card on this issue.
And just because we know one side (Hamas) is bad doesn't mean the other side is doing good. It's reasonable to be suspicious of both of the, IMO.
As for the afterlife stuff, don't they all believe in the afterlife over there? I mean on both sides?
In this issue, Israel certainly is the so called good guy. How many rockets does a sovereign nation have to take before they respond? There is no debate here, Hamas was firing rockets.
Who said anyone is banning journalists? The area is locked down, journalists don't have a right to walk past soldiers who are hunting down terrorists while airstrikes are taking place. This is not a complex issue. Israel might be one of the most open societies in the world. Do you think for a second a so called pro Israel news team would survive a second in the Gaza strip even during the best of times? In fact I doubt a Jew can walk in the majority of middle eastern cities without having the hide the fact they are Jewish. And now we are debating why Israel would ban the media (let alone anyone else period)?
Religiously, Judaism has no afterlife. Your life here is all you get. There is some orthodox though that believe at some point the dead will rise again, but they are in the vast minority and are not in the military (typically). On the other hand, the world of Islam is based on the afterlife.
Religiously, Judaism has no afterlife. Your life here is all you get. There is some orthodox though that believe at some point the dead will rise again, but they are in the vast minority and are not in the military (typically). On the other hand, the world of Islam is based on the afterlife.
There are most certainly some peopel on the Israeli side motivated by religious fanaticism. The government and nation is clearly more secular than Hamas, but there are most certainly some people who believe the entirety of the land is promissed to them.
You know not to derail this into a religious pissing match but comments like that are totally not necessary to your argument. Like the pink elephant trying to hide inside the paragraph, as soon as I read that line I stopped reading.
Why? That is actually the truth... I am not making it up. And to be clear, I am not talking about 'Joe Palestinian', I am talking about Muslim extremism. I have absolute empathy for the Palestinians and wish there was a way to give them long term peace and prosperity. I am choked at the posters here who mix up Hamas with the Palestinians, two totally different groups, one of which is at war with Israel, the other a population whose fate does not seem to be in their hands.
Next time you mess with someone's quote, at least make it clear you changed it, otherwise it just confuses things. You clearly changed what I wrote and in no terms is that funny.
In this issue, Israel certainly is the so called good guy. How many rockets does a sovereign nation have to take before they respond? There is no debate here, Hamas was firing rockets.
Who said anyone is banning journalists? The area is locked down, journalists don't have a right to walk past soldiers who are hunting down terrorists while airstrikes are taking place. This is not a complex issue. Israel might be one of the most open societies in the world. Do you think for a second a so called pro Israel news team would survive a second in the Gaza strip even during the best of times? In fact I doubt a Jew can walk in the majority of middle eastern cities without having the hide the fact they are Jewish. And now we are debating why Israel would ban the media (let alone anyone else period)?
Religiously, Judaism has no afterlife. Your life here is all you get. There is some orthodox though that believe at some point the dead will rise again, but they are in the vast minority and are not in the military (typically). On the other hand, the world of Islam is based on the afterlife.
Journalists are being denied entry into the Gaza Strip. That's the problem. What the hell a Jew walking down the street in a middle eastern city has to do with it is beyond me.
Do you have a problem with religions that have (or are "based on" to use your term) some soft of afterlife?
There are most certainly some peopel on the Israeli side motivated by religious fanaticism. The government and nation is clearly more secular than Hamas, but there are most certainly some people who believe the entirety of the land is promissed to them.
LOL, where do you come up with this stuff? Sure, a group of jews, the Orthodox, who have a pretty good lobby may believe in afterlife, but it is not what you are thinking it is. Your Wiki link does not prove what you think it proves. Jews do not get an afterlife, although their old books talk about where a 'soul' goes after they die, and how the messiah will resurrect them. Israeli soldiers, who are conservative or Reform (probably 65% with the rest non believers) certainly don't think they are saving themselves for a meeting in heaven. This is one of the major differences between the religion and the other major religions, what happens to them after they die. Jews cannot simply take Christ in their life and all is forgiven, it does not work that way.
The Wiki link simply talks about what the books say, written thousands of years ago (debateable). The key thing is that the jews have been around a long time, and issues of resurections, miracles, afterlife, intervention etc. are things of the past.
And absolutely, the jews think the land was promised to them, as the bible is pretty much based on this offer. But they also have no problem sharing the land, as they CURRENTLY clearly demonstrate. There are churches, mosques, synagogues all over the place. Even new religions can build whatever they want pretty much anywhere. How many synagogues in Jordan? Or Iran? How about Russia? Where did the Jews go?
There is certainly religous fanatacism in Israel, but I don't think that is the current issue, which is rockets being fired into Israel. Anyone can bring up the assorted internal issues Israel has, but what do they have to do with missles being luanched by Hamsa that are bankrolled by Iran???
Journalists are being denied entry into the Gaza Strip. That's the problem. What the hell a Jew walking down the street in a middle eastern city has to do with it is beyond me.
Do you have a problem with religions that have (or are "based on" to use your term) some soft of afterlife?
Actually, the problem is rockets being fired by Hamas. You seem to have an issue with journalists being denied entry. So I offered a parallel, that Jews are not allowed in many countries, with the penalty of death. Sure, focus on what Israel does, and ignore everything else.
Do I have problems with religions that are based on the afterlife? I think we should all sit back and review religion. I don't mind them in times of peace, but when scripture is used to trick someone into killing themselves and others, than I don't like it. This is widespread now, as we are witnessing.
What do you feel about it?
Actually, the problem is rockets being fired by Hamas. You seem to have an issue with journalists being denied entry. So I offered a parallel, that Jews are not allowed in many countries, with the penalty of death. Sure, focus on what Israel does, and ignore everything else.
Your "parallel" is completely irrelevant to the discussion about journalists in Gaza. It's not a parallel at all. It's a different issue entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
Do I have problems with religions that are based on the afterlife? I think we should all sit back and review religion. I don't mind them in times of peace, but when scripture is used to trick someone into killing themselves and others, than I don't like it. This is widespread now, as we are witnessing.
What do you feel about it?
Me, I think they are all nuts. You seem to be picking on the whole afterlife aspect of the Muslim religion. Meanwhile, back in the BatCave, Israel's main ally and arms supplier is reading about Jesus and talking about getting into heaven.
There are most certainly some peopel on the Israeli side motivated by religious fanaticism. The government and nation is clearly more secular than Hamas, but there are most certainly some people who believe the entirety of the land is promissed to them.
The same point I made in my initial post in this thread.
Religious extremism exists on both sides. Israel is not, and cannot be, a secular state. It is not a Western-style democracy. It is a Jewish state created to be a homeland for the Jewish people. Unfortunately for Israel (and very fortunately for the world's Jewish population) it's not the only place for Jews to live, and it's not the place that provides Jews with the best opportunities to live successful, peaceful, happy lives. This is why so many Israelis have chosen to leave Israel for America, and those that have left have tended to be the most moderate Israelis. Immigration the other way consists largely of highly religious Jews, which makes sense, because what other reason would, say, a Jewish American have for leaving the US and going to Israel?
The result, of course, is an increasingly religious state surrounded by extremely religious (and extremely hostile) states. Because of the influence of religious extremism, the actions and responses of both sides are less likely to be reasonable than one might expect of secular states. Unless, of course, one adopts the position that basing one's beliefs and actions largely on religious imperatives is "reasonable."
Otherwise, religion is going to continue to play what I think is a destructive role on both sides.
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Your "parallel" is completely irrelevant to the discussion about journalists in Gaza. It's not a parallel at all. It's a different issue entirely.
Me, I think they are all nuts. You seem to be picking on the whole afterlife aspect of the Muslim religion. Meanwhile, back in the BatCave, Israel's main ally and arms supplier is reading about Jesus and talking about getting into heaven.
I disagree about my parallel, the issue is rockets, you complained about journalists, something off topic, so I did the same.
I am picking on the afterlife thing, as it is used to convince people that they should die for their causes of killing jews, or whatever country they happen to be killing.
The same point I made in my initial post in this thread.
Religious extremism exists on both sides. Israel is not, and cannot be, a secular state. It is not a Western-style democracy. It is a Jewish state created to be a homeland for the Jewish people. Unfortunately for Israel (and very fortunately for the world's Jewish population) it's not the only place for Jews to live, and it's not the place that provides Jews with the best opportunities to live successful, peaceful, happy lives. This is why so many Israelis have chosen to leave Israel for America, and those that have left have tended to be the most moderate Israelis. Immigration the other way consists largely of highly religious Jews, which makes sense, because what other reason would, say, a Jewish American have for leaving the US and going to Israel?
The result, of course, is an increasingly religious state surrounded by extremely religious (and extremely hostile) states. Because of the influence of religious extremism, the actions and responses of both sides are less likely to be reasonable than one might expect of secular states. Unless, of course, one adopts the position that basing one's beliefs and actions largely on religious imperatives is "reasonable."
Otherwise, religion is going to continue to play what I think is a destructive role on both sides.
I am glad you are the judge of if Israel is more beneficial to a jew than another country. Glad it is you making that decision. Israel is not an increasingly religious state. There are many political parties representing many different ideas. Most of the governments spend much of their time figuring out ways to stay alive in the region.
The Jewish religion has little in the way of the current situation, which is a predominantly Jewish state (could have been any religion) plunked in the middle of the region. Had, IMO, the surrounding nations not been infiltrated my Muslim extremists, I would think the issue would have been resolved. Instead there has been to much war and too much terrorism. There are many ideas we can talk about to bring about peace, but the number one issue is to eliminate the current version of Hamas, Hezbollah and whatever you want to call Iran.
I am glad you are the judge of if Israel is more beneficial to a jew than another country. Glad it is you making that decision. Israel is not an increasingly religious state. There are many political parties representing many different ideas. Most of the governments spend much of their time figuring out ways to stay alive in the region.
The Jewish religion has little in the way of the current situation, which is a predominantly Jewish state (could have been any religion) plunked in the middle of the region. Had, IMO, the surrounding nations not been infiltrated my Muslim extremists, I would think the issue would have been resolved. Instead there has been to much war and too much terrorism. There are many ideas we can talk about to bring about peace, but the number one issue is to eliminate the current version of Hamas, Hezbollah and whatever you want to call Iran.
You really have a hard time restraining your emotions in this debate, don't you? Your arguments would be more convincing absent the unnecessary sarcasm.
There are many political parties in Israel, as you indicated. I imagine this incursion into Gaza is as much a political gambit by the present government to appeal to the Israeli population - a population which is likely tired of being shelled and a portion of which has no sympathy for the situation of the Palestinians - as it is an attempt to injure Hamas. They can't possibly believe that it's going to bring actual and long lasting security, because it clearly won't, particularly when a rather ham-fisted approach with large numbers of casualties is employed, and simply perpetuates yet another generation of angry hopeless youth. But the fact there are numerous parties only indicates there are various interests at play in Israel, as one might expect. It changes nothing about the power structure of Israeli politics, or the general nature of the population. And while the peace process would clearly be aided by the elimination of combative and extremist groups like Hamas, blowing them up isn't going to accomplish that. It's just going to lead to more eye-for-an-eye thinking and a continuation of violence.
Israel is in a difficult situation, no doubt about it. It has been since its creation, and it will be for the foreseeable future. But part of the problem is the result of Israel's mandate as a Jewish state - one that makes second class non-citizens of individuals who happened to be living there when the state was created, and who don't happen to share certain religious beliefs. If people of all religions could move to Israel and share equally in its promise, that would give some hope to the situation. But the fact is, Israel's entire raison d'etre is to be a homeland for Jewish people, and this by necessity means the exclusion of others. Israel's survival relies upon excluding people on the basis of their ethnicity and religion. This is inherently problematic, particularly given the ethnic and religious makeup of the people who were there when Israel was formed.
As for the state becoming more extreme, it's absolutely inevitable given their situation in the world: a state whose reason for being is no longer as valuable as it once was, which contains all sorts of important religious holy sites, and which is subject to constant stress and attack from outside and within its borders. The result is an attitude more conducive to fighting for survival than mending fences and doling out olive branches. But fighting will only beget more fighting, that much has been pretty well demonstrated.
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I disagree about my parallel, the issue is rockets, you complained about journalists, something off topic, so I did the same.
This doesn't make any sense at all. In this current skirmish journalists are being denied entry into Gaza. It's not off-topic at all. It is part of this story.
If an Orthodox Jew isn't safe on the streets of Damascus, well, that sucks, but it is completely irrelevant to what is happening right now in the Gaza Strip.
You haven't drawn any sort of parallel. You have, as you said, brought something off-topic into the discussion. Journalists being denied entry is not off-topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
I am picking on the afterlife thing, as it is used to convince people that they should die for their causes of killing jews, or whatever country they happen to be killing.
Looks to me like you are using this whole thing to take needless potshots at certain aspects of Islam.
1 - All main denominations of Judaism- Ultra-orthodox, orthodox, conservative, reform, and deconstructionist - involve an afterlife. The "World to Come" or the "Kingdom of Heaven" do factor in all those theologies. "Mitzvahs", or good deeds, lead to a good portion, at G-d's side, in the World to Come.
An exception is Humanistic Judaism, which does not believe in the after life.
2- Israel is the Jewish State governed as a secular parliamentary democracy.
What this means is that Synagogue and state are mostly separate (Rabbis of small religious parties do dictate policies, member/follower voting). the Judicial system is independent and there is due process and the adherence to the rule of civil law. Every CITIZEN (Jew, Muslim, Christian, man, woman, black, white, Asian, gay, straight, etc.) can vote and can hold political office and has civil rights.
3 - Israel is the Jewish State with Jewish laws & customs. What this means is that their weekend is Friday and Saturday, they use the Hebrew calendar, that their Statutory holidays are Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana (all those days that I am forced to use as vacation or unpaid time here in North America). Dec 25 is not a stat day in Israel. In Israel, schools teach about Jewish holidays & Customs - Hanukah songs instead of carols. (There are schools for Arab citizens, just as there are catholic schools in Canada)
Through politics the observant religious community has been able to sway votes to gain control of some aspects of law - religious conversion in Israel, official weddings and Bris' can only be done by authorized Orthodox rabbis.
Most restaurants serve kosher food (only recently has pork been available in Israel, mainly due to pressure from immigrants from the former Soviet Union, and the religious parties could not keep it out, the courts ruled against them.)
3- You cannot have it both ways - the population is mainly religious or the religous population is a small extreme one - Israel is neither. Of the 6 million Jews there, maybe half are observant, with maybe 1 million or so ultra-orthodox Jews. Israelis leave for many reasons, just as non-religious Jews go for many reasons - there are good opportunities in Israel - for example Warren Buffet has invested in Israeli companies.
Peace would bring prosperity all around.
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