Fighting in Gaza Strip

[Lucky boy]

I really didn't want to get into this debate, and my response wasn't meant to pick sides, I was just interested in how a guerrilla movement would work?

but since you insist...

Originally Posted by HOZ

1) Israel wasn't occupying Gaza. They left in 2005. Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian people. They formed the Gaza government only.

Gaza and the West Bank are definitely occupied territories. Israel controls all border crossings which includes anything going into and out of the zone, hence the economic blockade for the past 18 months. Israel controls all airspace and naval areas in the region.

2) Hamas fired 3000+ rockets at Israel during a "ceasefire" with no retaliation
3) Hamas unilaterally declaired the "ceasefire" over and pummelled Israeli territory with 200 missiles and numerous mortar attacks before Israel fired back

This is just not true. Israel broke the ceasefire two month ago. They also never ended the blockade which was one of the conditions of the "ceasefire" to begin with.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

I have also noticed that no one mentioned that there are elections in Israel next month.

Okinawa cost the Americans 100,000 casualties. 1 in 4 Okinawan was killed in the invasion. 220,000 or 5+ million. Which do you choose? Don't cop-out and give the lame "neither" answer. That wasn't an option.

It was just too much for me to ignore when the poster repeatedly said he would never target civilians because it was the act of terrorists and then somewhat justify the A-bomb drop on civilians a paragraph later.

And no ... I could never see myself ever agreeing to drop a nuclear bomb on a city of civilians no matter what the circumstances.

I have no interest in continuing this discussion. From my experience on the subject, people are either pro-Arab and will support the Palestinians no matter what, or people are pro-Israelis and will support the Israelis no matter what.

Again I am sorry if I offended anyone. It wasn't intentional. I do not support either side, although I will admit to being more sympathetic to the Palestinians, I find it difficult not to.

[sasquatch]

Gaza - Scores Update

Israelis killed in 10 years around Gaza............... 20
Palestinians killed in last 7 days around Gaza ... 600

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...k-1230046.html

[peter12]

Some quotes from the Hamas Charter. Including this little gem:

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

It's sort of a principle of mine to associate a belief in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" with mental illness.

Also witnesses report Hamas militants firing mortars from a crowd of refugees heading towards the UN school that got hit. People arguing against Israel's actions have some fair points, but please make some ethical distinctions here.

Click here for rest of article.

[HOZ]

Lets look at who broke the ceasefire....not all of us are on the same page

Granted not an unbiased sigh but do weigh the evidence

WHO broke the ceasefire?

Palestinian rockets threaten truce? The AP article in its lead paragraphs reported that:

Palestinian militants fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel yesterday, threatening to unravel a cease-fire days after it began, and Israel responded by closing vital border crossings into Gaza.
Despite what it called a "gross violation" of the truce, Israel refrained from military action and said it would send an envoy soon to Egypt to work on the next stage of a broader cease-fire agreement: a prisoner swap that would bring home an Israeli soldier held by Hamas for more than two years.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Gaza - Scores Update

Israelis killed in 10 years around Gaza............... 20
Palestinians killed in last 7 days around Gaza ... 600

Bomb shelters in Sderot - every intersection
Bomb shelters in Ashkelon - every major intersection
Bomb shelters in Gaza - none

"While Israel installs warning systems and builds shelters, Hamas refuses to do so, precisely because it wants to maximize the number of Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by Israel's military actions."

Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123085925621747981.html

And, Like Lorne Gunter of the National Post, I wonder why no one mentions that Gaza shares a southern boarder with Egypt - why does no humanitarian aid go through that security fence?

[Bleeding Red]

nm

[Bagor]

What's the rationale behind Israel banning the international press from entering Gaza?

[mykalberta]

There are alot of "media" already in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What's the rationale behind Israel banning the international press from entering Gaza?

Well my guess

The Israeli Palestinian conflict has largely become a propaganda war. It's kind of bizarre, but the victor seams less about who can win a conflict and more about who can present themselves as the greater victim.

In addition, the media in general has a tendency to report sensationalist stories so they are more likely to focus on the tragedies in the Gaza strip instead of the continual small attacks on Israel. The world outcry following the report of these stories is normally what stops Israel from accomplishing any of their goals. It seems like Israel is just trying to buy themselves as much time as possible.

Israel also can't guarantee the safety of the media. Israel has already had to deal with various accusations from the last camera man that died.

I'm not entirely sure this is a wise move for Israel because in the modern day anyone with a computer or cell phone can be a cameraman. Instead of a professional account of things, the world is likely to see doctored footage from Hamas. Although there is the counter argument that the mainstream media is unlikely to report this stuff fairly anyways, and it's entirely possible Israel is just fed up with the way their story is being portrayed.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

There are alot of "media" already in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

You missed the word "international" in my post.

Anyways, that's exactly my point.

Propoganda war is one sided at the moment.

Surely it would be in Israel's interest to let the international media in so that they could report the story as they see it.

Why aren't they doing it?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What's the rationale behind Israel banning the international press from entering Gaza?

One possibility is that they do not want reporters being used as shields and dying. Another is the chance that they may be taken hostage (which has happened in Gaza). I am sure there are other "military" reasons as well.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

One possibility is that they do not want reporters being used as shields and dying. Another is the chance that they may be taken hostage (which has happened in Gaza). I am sure there are other "military" reasons as well.

No it is about controlling the message. Israel loses or is loses when it comes to the international media. Better to win the war and lose PR war because of the AP fictional embellishments than lose the war because of the AP fictional embellishments.

[TheDragon]

According to one of Israel's Military Ambassador's, they don't want international media in there because of the increased danger it poses due to the distraction it creates. Hostage situations, perhaps? Though they are a liability, and I certainly wouldn't want to be a soldier who has to worry about a 3rd party get shot at if I'm on the ground trying to focus on my objective, I don't think that this is only reason.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You missed the word "international" in my post.

Anyways, that's exactly my point.

Propoganda war is one sided at the moment.

Surely it would be in Israel's interest to let the international media in so that they could report the story as they see it.

Why aren't they doing it?

Why?

Now all you see is what is an so obvious attempt by Hamas to trot out the kids etc., that they deliberately put in harms way, writhing in ambulances. Knowing the international media does not do objective news stories anymore why would they bother?

Propaganda and sensationalism are all news is about these days. I can't see any reason they would let them in.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Knowing the international media does not do objective news stories anymore why would they bother?

Agree to disagree on that.

Using S.Ossetia again as an example. Even though the Russians were painted as the baddies by many governments I (IMO) found that the media did a decent job of explaining and showing both sides of the conflict.

As things stand, the BBC and CNN are reliant on Palestinian footage and interviews by telephone for news coverage. To deny them access can be construed as being less than transparent.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Agree to disagree on that.

Using S.Ossetia again as an example. Even though the Russians were painted as the baddies by many governments I (IMO) found that the media did a decent job of explaining and showing both sides of the conflict.

As things stand, the BBC and CNN are reliant on Palestinian footage and interviews by telephone for news coverage. To deny them access can be construed as being less than transparent.

Well there are at least some international reporters on the scene now.

I doubt they are being given full access but they are there:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7816964.stm

[Nancy]

Originally Posted by blankall

<snip>
I'm not entirely sure this is a wise move for Israel because in the modern day anyone with a computer or cell phone can be a cameraman. Instead of a professional account of things, the world is likely to see doctored footage from Hamas. Although there is the counter argument that the mainstream media is unlikely to report this stuff fairly anyways, and it's entirely possible Israel is just fed up with the way their story is being portrayed.

e.g. Live Twitter updates from Gaza posted on the AlJazeera web site:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...531937971.html

[HelloHockeyFans]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...srael.rockets/

Lebanon (possibly Hezbollah) has joined the fray. I guess it was only a matter of time...

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...srael.rockets/

Lebanon (possibly Hezbollah) has joined the fray. I guess it was only a matter of time...

Sounds like Israel fired artillery into Lebanon in retalliation and schools are closed in fear of more Israeli retaliation.

At least three Katyusha rockets fired from south Lebanon exploded in northern Israel early Thursday morning, leaving two people lightly wounded and a number of others suffering from shock.

Israel Defense Forces troops immediately fired five artillery shells at Lebanon in response to the rockets, an Israeli security source said.


A military spokesman said Israel aimed "a pinpoint response at the source of fire."
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This was the first time a Katyusha fired from Lebanon struck Israeli territory since the Israel Air Force began its offensive against Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip on December 27.

...

Lebanese security sources said that schools in south Lebanon were closed, however, due to fear of Israeli reprisal.

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah on Wednesday warned that should Israel attack Lebanon, it would suffer an even greater defeat than the one he claimed it suffered in 2006.

"We are prepared for every possibility and are ready for all aggression... The Zionists will discover that the war they had in July was a walk in the park if we compare it to what we've prepared for every new aggression," Nasrallah said, referring to the Second Lebanon War.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053800.html

[HelloHockeyFans]

Yeah, this has the potential now to get a lot worse if Israel finds itself fighting two fronts... back an angry dog into a corner and...

The international community is really going to push now for a truce, but with Hezbollah involved now too, I'm not sure that Israel would even want to back off due to the perception they'd obviously give off by doing so...