Fighting in Gaza Strip

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Interesting Live leak video of Hammas using ambulances as troop carriers.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=116_1231063776

How old is that footage, Cap'n?

[CaptainCrunch]

Suppossedly taken during this war.

Added to Live Leak on Sunday

[burn_this_city]

Theres been plenty of evidence in the past that both Hamas and Fatah use ambulances to move troops and more importantly weapons around their terroritories.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Suppossedly taken during this war.

Added to Live Leak on Sunday

Yeah, I've seen stuff like this before, just wondered if it was recent. Not surprised.

[ikaris]

You know, I support Israel's right to defend itself from rocket attacks but I think it's diluted to think that their assault is different from the rocket attacks.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...6578174&page=1

Sounds pretty indiscriminate to me. Very similar to the "surgical" strikes that America has done in Afghanistan and Iraq. We've all seen how successful they are.

I really don't understand how killing more people will somehow stop more killing from occurring. I know if I had a family member killed in some sort of rocket attack or some random missile strike, it would make me very hard to forgive and forget.

From Israel's point of view, they have the technology and military strength to fight in a supposed "surgical" manner. When looking at it from the Palestinian point of view, if you can't fight in the same way as the Israelis, what else do you do other than resort to their attacks of desperation.

In the end, no one wins. Seems like the Palestinians could learn something from Gandhi. I sincerely doubt the world would allow Israel to do what they are doing against a nonviolent movement. I doubt that Israelis themselves would continue to support these assaults if the Palestinians engaged in a nonviolent confrontation.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ikaris

You know, I support Israel's right to defend itself from rocket attacks but I think it's diluted to think that their assault is different from the rocket attacks.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...6578174&page=1

The only difference is the quality of weapons. The Palestines, they have poorly made rockets with no guidance systems, and poorly made explosive warheads. They probably hit as many palestines as they hit Israeli's. If they had precision guided Mortars, or guided rockets and they were firing 3000 of them into Israel then the results would have been far more devestating. You don't give people a pass for incompetance.

Originally Posted by ikaris

Sounds pretty indiscriminate to me. Very similar to the "surgical" strikes that America has done in Afghanistan and Iraq. We've all seen how successful they are.

In terms of total warfare, if Israel was being indiscriminant then the casualty rate at this point would be far far higher. To me there's no such thing as surgical strikes, this term was made up to soften the public relations battle. bombs that are designed to go through windows still use metal cases for maximum fragmentation, as do grenades, mortar rounds or missile warheads. Explosions usually cause very limited death tolls, but its the fragments that do most of the killing. Israel if they didn't care about civilian casualties would simply level every standing structure, they certainly have the ammo stocks to do it.

Originally Posted by ikaris

I really don't understand how killing more people will somehow stop more killing from occurring. I know if I had a family member killed in some sort of rocket attack or some random missile strike, it would make me very hard to forgive and forget.

It isn't about killing civillians that will stop the rocket attacks, thats a terrible and unfortunate side effect. Its about killing the members of Hamas, hopefully making it unpopular to be cannon fodder for the group, destroying its leadership to make way for less experienced or competant leadership. Destroying their ability to make and move and fire their missiles. And destroying infrastructure so that Palestinians get pissed off at Hammas, and Hammas has to spend money on rebuilding instead of buying missiles and bomb vests and AK-47's.

Originally Posted by ikaris

From Israel's point of view, they have the technology and military strength to fight in a supposed "surgical" manner. When looking at it from the Palestinian point of view, if you can't fight in the same way as the Israelis, what else do you do other than resort to their attacks of desperation.

an attack is an attack is an attack. To me its the intention, not the result. Hamas represents a government, and firing rockets into Israel represents a threat from a nation state. It would be the same if Canada suddenly decided to shell Washington, the U.S. reaction would be overwhelming and vicious because the U.S. would be protecting its citizens and assets.

Originally Posted by ikaris

In the end, no one wins. Seems like the Palestinians could learn something from Gandhi. I sincerely doubt the world would allow Israel to do what they are doing against a nonviolent movement. I doubt that Israelis themselves would continue to support these assaults if the Palestinians engaged in a nonviolent confrontation.

I agree, however Hamas even though they're elected still thinks like a terrorist group, still uses their civilians as shields and still uses ceasefires to train, recruit and rearm.

Even if Palestinians decided to go non violent, it wouldn't be long before their war with Israel changed to a war with the extremist groups. As a people, they're screwed by their support of these militants, and they'd be equally screwed if they withdrew that support.

[TheDragon]

Indeed. The Gaza Strip in it's entirety is less than 400 Sq. KMs, and is one of the world's most densely populated areas. One and a half million people live in an area less than 2 times the size of downtown Calgary.

Imagine, if you could, how hard it would be to single out the bad guys from the innocent civilians if there was an insurgency in this city that stretch from about the Saddledome to Kensington, and they were lobbing rockets into the rest of the city. Then, when they were targetted, ran and hid inside schools and hospitals.

Frankly, the fact that there has only been a few hundred fatalities in Gaza is a bit of a blessing. Not that I condone what either side is doing, mind you... but nevertheless, I'd say Israel is doing a fairly respectable job of peeling back on collateral damage.

It's just a damn shame it's had to come to this.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The only difference is the quality of weapons. The Palestines, they have poorly made rockets with no guidance systems, and poorly made explosive warheads. They probably hit as many palestines as they hit Israeli's. If they had precision guided Mortars, or guided rockets and they were firing 3000 of them into Israel then the results would have been far more devestating. You don't give people a pass for incompetance.

That's the whole point though isn't it? If this was a war between two more equal powers, I do not think anyone would be criticizing either side for any casualties inflicted as it would be catastrophic mutually. This really comes down to how many Arabs and Muslims view Israel's defense as disproportionate, in spite of all the efforts of the Israelis to reduce the death toll.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In terms of total warfare, if Israel was being indiscriminant then the casualty rate at this point would be far far higher. To me there's no such thing as surgical strikes, this term was made up to soften the public relations battle. bombs that are designed to go through windows still use metal cases for maximum fragmentation, as do grenades, mortar rounds or missile warheads. Explosions usually cause very limited death tolls, but its the fragments that do most of the killing. Israel if they didn't care about civilian casualties would simply level every standing structure, they certainly have the ammo stocks to do it.

It's very clear that Israel is doing as much as it can do to reduce the collateral damage. The problem is that this collateral damage will continue to breed new suicide bombers who feel that they have no other choice as they've lost everything that was important to them. The "endless cycle of violence" that we commonly hear referred to in the media.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

It isn't about killing civillians that will stop the rocket attacks, thats a terrible and unfortunate side effect. Its about killing the members of Hamas, hopefully making it unpopular to be cannon fodder for the group, destroying its leadership to make way for less experienced or competant leadership. Destroying their ability to make and move and fire their missiles. And destroying infrastructure so that Palestinians get pissed off at Hammas, and Hammas has to spend money on rebuilding instead of buying missiles and bomb vests and AK-47's.

Obviously Hamas is positioning themselves so that Israel has no choice but to inflict the collateral damage. Hamas is doing this for political reasons to further inflame people against Israel. The truth is, the civilians in Gaza are never going to blame Hamas because they will always see it as Israeli weapons killing them. To put it quite literally, if a bomb fell down near your home and your brother/sister/mother/father was killed, would you even care that the bomb was dropped near your home because some militant was in the area or would you be directed to hate the people who dropped the bomb? Especially if that militant is your relative?

Look at it this way, when an Israeli dies, they have a support system to help deal with the issue (including psychological help, medical help, etc). As well, they have a democracy with a strong military to turn to. When a Palestinian dies, who looks out for them? As pathetic as it is, in Gaza, it's Hamas. Keep in mind Hamas also builds schools and hospitals for Palestinians.

The strategy you outlined, has that ever worked historically? We've seen this strategy of failure by the Russians, and now NATO in Afghanistan, America in Iraq, India in Kashmir, Vietnam.. etc.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

an attack is an attack is an attack. To me its the intention, not the result. Hamas represents a government, and firing rockets into Israel represents a threat from a nation state. It would be the same if Canada suddenly decided to shell Washington, the U.S. reaction would be overwhelming and vicious because the U.S. would be protecting its citizens and assets.

Let's say the U.S. is occupying Canada and has blocked off all our borders. Now what? We don't have the military firepower to resist. Now let's say in our defense we attempt some haphazard response which then instigates America to launch a full scale invasion. In this invasion, you have suddenly lost some family members by some missile attack that was aimed at some of our military defenses. How do you fight back?

I'm definitely not justifying the extreme methods that Hamas is using. I'm just trying to understand what kind of mindset that you would have to have to actually engage in terrorism. Ultimately in trying to diffuse this sort of crisis some understanding needs to happen as to why this occurs.

When Japan was being invaded by the U.S. it's been speculated that one of the key reasons that the States eventually launched the bomb is because they didn't want to deal with the kamikazes that would be inevitable in any sort of ground assault.

It's hard to fathom how someone would willingly die in a suicide attack. They must be living in some dire conditions to even think about it.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree, however Hamas even though they're elected still thinks like a terrorist group, still uses their civilians as shields and still uses ceasefires to train, recruit and rearm.

Even if Palestinians decided to go non violent, it wouldn't be long before their war with Israel changed to a war with the extremist groups. As a people, they're screwed by their support of these militants, and they'd be equally screwed if they withdrew that support.

Maybe. But it's the only thing that I could think of that may actually cause a resolution that all parties could agree to and it would truly expose to the world the plight of the Palestinian people in a way that the Western world could sympathize. The fact that Hamas refuses the right of Israel to exist kind of makes impossible to deal with them legitimately.

[Nage Waza]

[quote=ikaris;1591629]From Israel's point of view, they have the technology and military strength to fight in a supposed "surgical" manner. When looking at it from the Palestinian point of view, if you can't fight in the same way as the Israelis, what else do you do other than resort to their attacks of desperation.
quote]

What you describe as an attack of desperation is pure myth, if not outright lies. The attacks are cold and calculated from an organized terrorist group, not the result of anything else. The attacks are preached in assorted mosques and banked by other countries. The suicide bombers themselves are handpicked and go through serious brainwashing. To claim they are desperate and thus murder is wrong, and 99% of the attacks are not like that in any way shape or form. What you are doing is trying to justify behaviour.
The missles are manufactured and imported into the zone, in other words someone is supplying them. The surrounding countries are either in cahoots with Hamas (Iran, Syria), at war with Hamas (Lebanon/Egypt/Jordan - although it is allies of Hamas) or stay quiet.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

What you describe as an attack of desperation is pure myth, if not outright lies. The attacks are cold and calculated from an organized terrorist group, not the result of anything else. The attacks are preached in assorted mosques and banked by other countries. The suicide bombers themselves are handpicked and go through serious brainwashing. To claim they are desperate and thus murder is wrong, and 99% of the attacks are not like that in any way shape or form. What you are doing is trying to justify behaviour.
The missles are manufactured and imported into the zone, in other words someone is supplying them. The surrounding countries are either in cahoots with Hamas (Iran, Syria), at war with Hamas (Lebanon/Egypt/Jordan - although it is allies of Hamas) or stay quiet.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I have been saying. In no way am I trying to justify what Hamas is doing. Your refusal to understand why someone could be led to this sort of desperation is an example of the viewpoint for one of the causes for this endless cycle of violence.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

What you describe as an attack of desperation is pure myth, if not outright lies. The attacks are cold and calculated from an organized terrorist group, not the result of anything else. The attacks are preached in assorted mosques and banked by other countries. The suicide bombers themselves are handpicked and go through serious brainwashing. To claim they are desperate and thus murder is wrong, and 99% of the attacks are not like that in any way shape or form. What you are doing is trying to justify behaviour.

The missles are manufactured and imported into the zone, in other words someone is supplying them. The surrounding countries are either in cahoots with Hamas (Iran, Syria), at war with Hamas (Lebanon/Egypt/Jordan - although it is allies of Hamas) or stay quiet.

Would you say the suicide bombers are handpicked from a selection of happy, healthy, educated citizens? Or are these people unhappy, unhealthy, and uneducated people, aka "desperate".

I'm not going to get into why these people might be desperate, or who is to be blamed for this desperation, but they are clearly desperate.

Anyway, you make a lot of definitive statements about this whole mess. You seem very confident that you know what you are saying is true and whoever might have a different interpretation is either completely wrong or possibly lying, so I have a question for you.

Would it be fair to say that you believe Israel is completely without fault in this entire catastrophe, and the enemies of Israel are completely guilty? Or can blame be assigned to both sides?

[redforever]

Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
The real tragedy in all this is the surviving kids, seeing relatives and friends killed on the streets will embed in their minds until they awake as an adult full of hate and the need to kill. It just goes on and on and on.

History shows if a government doesn't admit to a mistake and try to make amends hatred will run rampid for generations...the exception may be Germany after WWII.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Classic example of how violence begets violence. Are certain regions prone to war because the people have a tendency towards violence, or do societies become violent due to a history of war and invasion.

Personally, I tend to think most of the time it is the latter.

I agree.

Children are born innocent and they do not know how to hate. That is a learned trait and it can come from various factors.

It certainly can be learned from the family environment, in fact I would think that is most often the case. Children growing up in such an environment certainly will be influenced by what they see their family and neighbors talking about, doing etc It will take a concentrated effort by those children when they become adults, to stop the cycle and try and stop the hate and the violence.

Then, children can be influenced by events that actually happen to them or that they witness. I wish I had saved the link, but shortly after this war started in Gaza, I saw a picture posted, of a young girl, running beside the coffins of her 3 siblings, who had been killed by the Israelis bombing Gaza. And the mother had been interviewed, totally over wraught with grief, asking "what does she have left to live for?"

It will take a lot for that young girl who has lost 3 of her siblings or for that mother who has born the brunt of losing 3 of her children, to say enough is enough, let there be peace. I would think it will be an insurmountable task.

I think it will take some tragic event, maybe not even as tragic as some that have already occurred, before resolve is finally there to achieve some kind of lasting peace.

I think of Ireland and England and all the fighting that went on for years and years and years. And finally when around 16 more innocent children were the victims of some attack, both sides finally had enough. It was not that many innocent children and adults had not been victims before, but suddenly, the will to make peace became greater than the will to continue with terrorism or war.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ikaris

That's the whole point though isn't it? If this was a war between two more equal powers, I do not think anyone would be criticizing either side for any casualties inflicted as it would be catastrophic mutually. This really comes down to how many Arabs and Muslims view Israel's defense as disproportionate, in spite of all the efforts of the Israelis to reduce the death toll.

I think that the criticism of Israel for the use of their military is unwarranted. In the past Israel has tried a more subtle approach, they've tried economic approaches, they even tried to work with the Government in place, and all it got them was a few thousand rockets fired into their backyards. At this point the war is both political and a hammer blow after lighter blows were used. Don't fool yourself, Hammas knew that this response was going to happen as soon as they canceled the cease fire and started firing rockets enmasse.

Originally Posted by ikaris

It's very clear that Israel is doing as much as it can do to reduce the collateral damage. The problem is that this collateral damage will continue to breed new suicide bombers who feel that they have no other choice as they've lost everything that was important to them. The "endless cycle of violence" that we commonly hear referred to in the media.

Israel couldn't win no matter what the situation, even in times of relative peace during the ceasefire Hamas was having no trouble filling their ranks. This is what happens when an extreme militant group gets their hands on children at a young age and has the opportunity to indoctrinate them by funding their education. I would hope that this crushing attack by Israel would convince people that joining these groups is a suicide pact and they would start saying no. The endless cycle of violence happens because Hamas has a foolproof factory of suicide bombers in their schools as they work on young and foolish minds.

Originally Posted by ikaris

Obviously Hamas is positioning themselves so that Israel has no choice but to inflict the collateral damage. Hamas is doing this for political reasons to further inflame people against Israel. The truth is, the civilians in Gaza are never going to blame Hamas because they will always see it as Israeli weapons killing them. To put it quite literally, if a bomb fell down near your home and your brother/sister/mother/father was killed, would you even care that the bomb was dropped near your home because some militant was in the area or would you be directed to hate the people who dropped the bomb? Especially if that militant is your relative?

I don't know how I react because I'm not them. However as a formerly trained soldier who had a code of ethics pounded into him, I find it more likely that I wouldn't intentionally attack the innocent, I wouldn't attack schools and school buses and restaurants intentionally to inflict the most civilian casualties as possible.

Based on what your saying I can see from the Israel side that its critically important to break Hamas, break and attempt to end the cycle of violence by removing the most violent element of that society.

Originally Posted by ikaris

Look at it this way, when an Israeli dies, they have a support system to help deal with the issue (including psychological help, medical help, etc). As well, they have a democracy with a strong military to turn to. When a Palestinian dies, who looks out for them? As pathetic as it is, in Gaza, it's Hamas. Keep in mind Hamas also builds schools and hospitals for Palestinians.

Again I can't put myself in their shoes, and I wouldn't want to. However the educated self that is me would be pissed off that my government is putting weapons in my school and mosques, and putting my and my family's life in jeopardy by antagonizing an enemy that is 100's of times more powerfull then I am.

Originally Posted by ikaris

The strategy you outlined, has that ever worked historically? We've seen this strategy of failure by the Russians, and now NATO in Afghanistan, America in Iraq, India in Kashmir, Vietnam.. etc.

Sure it worked with Japan and with Germany to a point. We smashed the infrastructure in their countries and then helped them rebuild without their hate filled government. Will it work in this case, thats up to Israel's end game and Egypts intentions. However, I don't think Israel really had much choice, all of their previous strategies have failed to guarantee their security.

Originally Posted by ikaris

Let's say the U.S. is occupying Canada and has blocked off all our borders. Now what? We don't have the military firepower to resist. Now let's say in our defense we attempt some haphazard response which then instigates America to launch a full scale invasion. In this invasion, you have suddenly lost some family members by some missile attack that was aimed at some of our military defenses. How do you fight back?

Personally? Me? Again I can't put myself in those shoes, and please don't think I have no sympathy for the Palestinian innocents. However my first instinct is to go after the idiots that launched the hap hazard response and get them out of power. Then hopefully people that are smarter then me can move in and secure peace through the use of negotiation.

But my ethics tell me not to attack innocents.

If I was ultra pissed, I would form a guerella movement and go after the occupying army.

Originally Posted by ikaris

I'm definitely not justifying the extreme methods that Hamas is using. I'm just trying to understand what kind of mindset that you would have to have to actually engage in terrorism. Ultimately in trying to diffuse this sort of crisis some understanding needs to happen as to why this occurs.

Most terrorists are indoctrinated at a young age, they are guillable and easily lead by a few elites that controll schools or churches or political groups. Most terrorists have a crusader mentallity that tells them that any means to an end is justifiable because thats what they've been taught.

Originally Posted by ikaris

When Japan was being invaded by the U.S. it's been speculated that one of the key reasons that the States eventually launched the bomb is because they didn't want to deal with the kamikazes that would be inevitable in any sort of ground assault.

Thats entirely true, they also intercepted radio communications from the Japanese High Command instructing their troops to defend every square inch of their soil with their lives, that surrender wasn't exceptable. It would have been a blood bath for a marine amphibious invasion.

Originally Posted by ikaris

It's hard to fathom how someone would willingly die in a suicide attack. They must be living in some dire conditions to even think about it.

Or they were taught to be that way. I would point off that there are examples of home grown terrorists that were raised by good families in a wealthy environment and someone got a hold of them at a young age and turned them into monsters, a good example of that was Bin Laden, or even some of the British subway bombers.

Originally Posted by ikaris

Maybe. But it's the only thing that I could think of that may actually cause a resolution that all parties could agree to and it would truly expose to the world the plight of the Palestinian people in a way that the Western world could sympathize. The fact that Hamas refuses the right of Israel to exist kind of makes impossible to deal with them legitimately.

To me, the only way that this will come to resolution is with the destruction of Hamas as a policical and Militant organization, and then the flooding of Gaza with Western money to rebuild without the extreme teachings in the schools and the Mosques. At this point I would also encourage the more moderate regimes in Egypt and Jordan to take a more active hand in the region.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by ikaris

This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I have been saying. In no way am I trying to justify what Hamas is doing. Your refusal to understand why someone could be led to this sort of desperation is an example of the viewpoint for one of the causes for this endless cycle of violence.

You said that Palestinians attack in an act of desperation, or something like that. I simply responded by saying that was not true, and explained why. And in no way were you justifying what Hamas was doing, but why Palestinians do what they do.

I completely disagree that the so called desperation has any part of the conflict we are seeing today. This is pure terrorism committed by Hamas, pure and simple. We can talk about the plight of the Palestinians, which I feel for, but that has zero to do with rocket attacks on Israel.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Would you say the suicide bombers are handpicked from a selection of happy, healthy, educated citizens? Or are these people unhappy, unhealthy, and uneducated people, aka "desperate".
I'm not going to get into why these people might be desperate, or who is to be blamed for this desperation, but they are clearly desperate.
Anyway, you make a lot of definitive statements about this whole mess. You seem very confident that you know what you are saying is true and whoever might have a different interpretation is either completely wrong or possibly lying, so I have a question for you.
Would it be fair to say that you believe Israel is completely without fault in this entire catastrophe, and the enemies of Israel are completely guilty? Or can blame be assigned to both sides?

The suicide bombers are selected based on how the terrorist org thinks they will respond to the brainwashing. Does the average person there believe that their current life is a preperation for the afterlife? If they do, then perhaps they are pulled aside for more advanced so called religous studies. Keep in mind their schools are filled with absolutely vile and racist schooling. A suicde bombing is not a last minute act of desperation, it happens after a lot of work from a cult like operation, where the bomber is seperated from family. There is much research on this, you can read many books on the subject. This is not passive resistance like in Tibet...And until 2nd intefadah, the lives of the Palestinians was much better than many of the surrounding countries. The recent push by radical Islam within Hamas certainly did not improve things, that is for sure.
You can have any interpretation you want, this current situation is caused by rockets fired from Hamas terrorists from civilian population areas. PERIOD. You can add all the history you want, you can deny anything you want, you can tell as much truth as you want, but this issue is caused by terrorists. Israel left the Gaza a long time ago, and Hamas took control. As you can see now, they are a bad group. Do you see Israel invading the West Bank? Hamas is under control in the gaza, and are not able to launch rockets from the West Bank (under control from other Palestinians). The West Bank citizens are watching the entire episode and going to sleep at night not worried of being attacked.
If I call someone a liar, it is for one reason: They are spreading lies. Basically, when someone puts forth a statement that is not true I call it. Especially in this issue: We are talking about a terrorst group. The biggest issue I have is that many people only post on the subject when Israel does something. I don't see the posts when Hamas is launching rockets, I don't see the posts when Canadian soldiers are killed, I don't see the posts when Syrian or Iranian Hezbollah terrorists are committing crimes, people come out of the woodwork when Israel defends itself.
Do I think Israel is at fault? Well for sure they have done some things wrong, but they are in a very tough position. The majority of the world condems them when they respond but are silent when terrorists attack. Why are they silent? Often because they are afraid of getting into the spotlight of Islamic rioters or things of that nature. Believe it or not, Israel has some serious allies in the region, countries that are fighting the same enemy, these countries include Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and some others. These countries are all silent partners and work with Israel quietly, otherwise they might face the wrath of militants.
Israel has done some things wrong, as many countries have. Could they have avoided the current conflict? Well they could have sat there under fire for a while. Where would that get them? Keep in mind there are three factions in this: Israel, the Palestinians and Hamas. It is actually hard to find out what the Palestinians truly want, as they are under complete militant rule. Say the wrong thing, goodbye. The Gaza should be a part of Egypt, but Egypt basically wanted nothing to do with the area. The West Bank is largely a result of civil war in Jordan. The fact is Israel exists and the Palestinians won't if they continue siding with groups like Hamas. I am not sure what will become of them, possibly a ward of the UN. Some of the accusations against Israel in this thread border on the insane. For example, there have been accusations of genocide, justification of terrorism, confusing the act of terrorism to the act of a 'desperate' person, unfair use of military might, bombing Gaza for basically no reason at all, concluding the Hamas missle attacks as being a mere nuisance etc. I am only defening against comments like that and defending the current situation has basic terrorism commited by Hamas with the partial hopes of as many innocent Palestinian deaths as possible to drum up sympathy around the world.
I don't think you are a liar, I think what you claimed about desperation caused rocket fire to be a lie, not created by you, but by many others to drum up support.

[Bagor]

^ Curious, but where in the thread has there been accusations of genocide?

And do you find the US position where they support Israel's actions yet criticized Russia for "disproportional use of force" a case of double standards?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Bagor

^ Curious, but where in the thread has there been accusations of genocide?

And do you find the US position where they support Israel's actions yet criticized Russia for "disproportional use of force" a case of double standards?

Yes.

Nobody in this thread said anything about genocide. But Hamas' excuse makers and backers in the west have unceasingly used that word.



************************************************** *****
Unrelated to above post.....

Looks like Gaza will NOW be an occupied territory. Hopefully Israel can take over the schools and get the next generation a real education.

Pallywood is going strong on CNN. It is interesting how the abulance workers have time to pause an allow CNN get some coverage when they are trying "desperately" to get the "victim of Israeli aggression" to a hospital! Maybe they are pausing to allow the troops to disembark before putting the "civilian" on??

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If I was ultra pissed, I would form a guerella movement and go after the occupying army.

This is an interesting view point. How would you supply weapons for your cause? And how would you use these weapons to expel the occupying army?

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Most terrorists are indoctrinated at a young age, they are guillable and easily lead by a few elites that controll schools or churches or political groups. Most terrorists have a crusader mentallity that tells them that any means to an end is justifiable because thats what they've been taught.


Thats entirely true, they also intercepted radio communications from the Japanese High Command instructing their troops to defend every square inch of their soil with their lives, that surrender wasn't exceptable. It would have been a blood bath for a marine amphibious invasion.

Is 220,000 civilians dead (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) not a blood bath?

I really don't mean to attack your responses personally and I apologize if I offend anyone.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Do I think Israel is at fault? Well for sure they have done some things wrong..

That's enough for me. Far as I'm concerned, they are all wrong. Beyond that I guess it's varying degrees of whosewrongness, depending on the person.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I don't think you are a liar, I think what you claimed about desperation caused rocket fire to be a lie, not created by you, but by many others to drum up support.

I didn't make any claims about "desperation causing rocket fire". I asked specifically about suicide bombers.

Does the average person there believe that their current life is a preperation for the afterlife?

Is there an inherent problem with a place where the average person believes their current life is a preparation for the afterlife?

That's a big can of worms that I don't want to open, but...

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

This is an interesting view point. How would you supply weapons for your cause? And how would you use these weapons to expel the occupying army?



Is 220,000 civilians dead (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) not a blood bath?

I really don't mean to attack your responses personally and I apologize if I offend anyone.

1) Israel wasn't occupying Gaza. They left in 2005. Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian people.
2) Hamas fired 3000+ rockets at Israel during a "ceasefire" with no retaliation
3) Hamas unilaterally declaired the "ceasefire" over and pummelled Israeli territory with 200 missiles and numerous mortar attacks before Israel fired back


Okinawa cost the Americans 100,000 casualties. 1 in 4 Okinawan was killed in the invasion. 220,000 or 5+ million. Which do you choose? Don't cop-out and give the lame "neither" answer. That wasn't an option.